Ive been ill today so spent most of it with my head in the new Tau book, I think its a pretty good book and follows the trend of recent 6th Ed Codex in that there are nice combos to be had in the book, great synergy and most units are usable and not a lot stands out as being really overpowered.
I will pick out what I think are the key things;
HQ
Fireblades; I think competative lists are going to run two of these, they really are great for a low points costs, almost doubling the effectiveness of a fire warrior squad. 12 FW with a Fireblade runs in at less than a tactical squad and this gives you 24 S5 shots at 30'' a turn.
Ethereal; I think he is a really good choice his powers are fantastic and are almost enough to miss out on a fireblade for but I think the fact he gives up a whole VP is too much of a risk to take him over a Fireblade, especially when he will probably be sitting in a squishy FW team.
Commander; Same as usual really, a solid option.
Troops
Fire Warriors; These guys are the new focus of the book, the points reduction and ability to get them more shots will mean we are going to see a lot of them on the table. They seem to have gone away from the more mobile aspects we used to see like FW in Fish although Carbines did get a nice boost [now twice as good] which they really needed in 6th.
Kroot; They took a SERIOUS hit in combat prowess. Now they are next to useless in assault even if you max out on Kroot Hounds, in a way its as it should be as Tau shouldnt have a viable combat option but on the other hand Kroot should be good in combat. They are still decent as a cheap scoring unit, especially as they can be snipers for 1 extra point, 10 snipers with a lone hound will set you back 75 points and you will have infiltrating snipers with stealth who can outflank really well if you need to grab an objective on a flank [thanks to the hounds acute senses]. So they are usable but I dont think we will see much of them.
Elites
Battlesuits; Ive never rated normal battlesuits, I dont think they put out enough firepower and I dont think they survive well enough to return fire but they arent bad, pretty much the same as usual although some of the new support systems are very nice. I think they end up a little cheaper.
Stealth Suits; I like these guys, stealth, shrouding and a jetpack means they can reliably whittle away enemy units whilst staying out of charge range and maintaining a great cover save for themselves. Not game breakers but a handy little unit.
Riptide; The big talking point of the new book and I think they balanced him well. His firepower isnt over the top although it is good and I think most people will give him skyfire and FnP. Giving him an Ion and Plasm Rifle lets him deal out the AP2 whilst your FW slay hordes and the decent AP on his guns will give him a chance to 1 shot flyers rather than glacing them to death. This comes into just under 250 points and he only has a 5+invun rather than a 4+ that you would get from a normal shield generator. I think its a very effective but fair unit.
Fast Attack
Vespid, Drones and Piranhas are all ok but havent changed all that much really although I think a whole unit of markerlight drones are an interesting option.
Pathfinders; I think they got a boost just from the fact that they dont need a Fish. I also think Markerlights got better, +1BS even for snapshots is great, have those FW's shoot down a flyer! [although thats best coming from a Skyray markerlight], ignoring cover totally is also pretty amazing.
Heavy Support
Broadsides; Still a good unit, they do lose S on their weapon [heavy rail rifle now] but at the end of the day they can choose skyfire, a twin linked S8AP1 skyfire weapon is pretty good for 85 points. Coupled with the fact that every suit can have 2 drones now means that these guys will be hard to kill off with shooting gives quite a nice anti air option. I think i prefer the rifle to the missile pods as it gives low AP against ground targets [FW's deal with anything that hasnt got a 2+] and the chance of killing a flyer off in a single shot plus you may need that extra S to deal with AV13 with the lack of really high strength weapons in the army.
Hammerhead; Pretty much as it was although the Ion Cannon got a boost with a secondary fire option, still a great choice and gets a 4+ cover just for moving with the right equipment.
Skyray; It his Skyfire, its pretty cheap and it has two networked markerlights, I really like this. Those markerlights will let your Fire Warriors kill flyers if you need them too.
Flyers
Like most flyers lately they have been toned down a little, the fighter averages 3 S7 hits on an enemy flyer a turn with the right load out, thats ok but it does set you back 150 pts and has fairly poor armour, I wouldnt trust it against a Scythe or Vendetta. The Bomber costs a little more and is almost as good against other flyers and also has a fairly poor bomb payload, they are both usable but I think there are better ways to have anti air in the Tau list.
I think if you are going to take an Ethereal, one of the Characters are the best choice unless you are on a budget. Aun'Va can make your whole army nearly immune to breaking and running and 2 Invocations a turn are very nice.
I fully agree with you on Firewarriors. The Tau gunline is a thing to be feared again. I think I will be running units of 8 in packs of 2 units working to support the other with Markerlights and Supporting Fire.
Marker Drone Squads are going to be a fun thing. Only BS2 sure, but for the points, you can take four of them and just have them float around a light up targets of opportunity.
The Riptide will be very fun. The only risk is the sheer number of Gets Hot! rolls on a Novacharged HBC. Shadowsun would help there with her Command Link Drone allowing re-rolls of ones. But a HBC, Novacharged and combined with a Velocity Tracker will simply rip flyers from the air. I think most people will be using Broadsides as their go to AA though.
The Skyray seems to be completely obsolete now however. I can't see any reason at all to take one.
The new fliers are also kinda. . .underwhelming. The Razorshark actually makes a better bomber than the Sunshark if you dont mind risking the Gets Hot! for the blast.
Sample List - 1850
Fireblade -
Fireblade -
12 Fire Warriors -
12 Fire Warriors -
10 Fire Warriors -
6 Stealth Suits -
2 Broadsides - Skyfire, 4 Shield Drones
Riptide - FnP, Skyfire, Ion, Plasma
Riptide - FnP, Skyfire, Ion, Plasma
Skyray -
+
Eldrad
3 Eldar Bikes -
3 Eldar Bikes -
Defense Line with Quadgun
It is those last options which I think really push Tau lists into contention with other top builds, Eldrad will let you cast prescience twice a turn [on those 2x12 FW with Fireblades] and he will also misfortune your main target so that they are re rolling saves. Not much in the game will stand up to that. Eldrad joins the last FW team so that all 3 teams have good LD and they all hunker down behind a defense line for a lovely 4+ cover whilst Eldrad mans the Quadgun. The Bikes provide fast scoring you can keep in reserve whilst you have 2 broadsides, 2 riptides and a quadgun for anti air along with the skyray and even the FW's can fill that roll when they have prescience cast on them.
I think Eldar and Defenselines really make the army.
Those 2 FW squads with Eldrad and Fireblade support shoot down, at 30'' 13 Marines or 7 Terminators, in a single turn thanks to Presience and Misfortune. Wraithspam led by Destroyer Lords with 2+ saves just got way less scary.
Fluff
I think there is some pretty good fluff in this codex, they dont go into the damocles crusade as much which is a shame but what I do like about the fluff in this is that they put a lot into the spheres of expansion and what a sept consists of which makes it pretty easy to work out roughly how many worlds the Tau control, they also name drop a few more aliens which is always cool.
What I dont like which is the case with most Tau fluff is that they never have them lose and always have them luck out, they always win with hardly any losses because the imperium were conveniently away fighting somebody else so sent a tiny force or the Orks fighting them didnt have a single commander leading the Waaagh [despite Waaghs forming from a single great leader uniting them]. It would be nice to have them take a real hit for once that actually sends them realing a bit rather than has them lose a few worlds then just claim those back and then more on top of that right away. It would give them a real sense of danger and worry like the rest of the more 'good' aligned races have without taking away their dynamic expansion and adaptability. They also dont mention any losses which they recieve in other books such as the indcident with urien rakath or the losses they took when marines retook nimbosa which is a shame as I like crossover between books and other codex have their own army losing in them.
There are more hints at the dark side of the ethereals though which is nice.
There seems to be some things missing, im pretty sure they dont explain the whole bonding knife thing in there much at all. Which as an option in the actual list you would think they would go into more detail for newer players.
Art
Great artwork especially some of the new stuff, I like the battle between Eldar and Tau on the inside covers.
In fairness, Tau fluff has always been that way; it seems their racial trait is "we should have been wiped out a thousand times over, but we have awesome Deus Ex Machina come and save us every time there's a problem."
Curious. How is Farsight doing against the ORKs? Last time I was reading, his butt was being handed to him.
I like the idea that Shadowsun is on a secret mission to hunt down and kill Farsight. The more I think about it, the more her suit and weapons make sense.
Farsight is T4 and has a 4++. She has 2 Fusion Blasters, assuming 2 hits, he will save one and the other will Instant Death him.
She is stealthed so that he can't see her coming and so she can move about his compounds undetected. She has 2 MV52 Shield Drones which give her a 3++ against the Dawn Blade and his Plasma Rifle. And the only Command Link Drone so she can issue orders on the move to other Stealth teams operating with her, and get intel from them.
She is the scalpel to his sledgehammer. She is harder to spot until she is right on top of you, at which point she will shoot, and he will be dead.
It all makes sense to me when I think about it. She is kitted out for the exact purpose of killing Farsight, and defending herself from him.
Quote from: pepsi on April 06, 2013, 11:21:05 PM
Curious. How is Farsight doing against the ORKs? Last time I was reading, his butt was being handed to him.
I just finished reading the The Arkunasha War and in no way did Farsight get his butt handed to him by the Orks. Or did you read a different story? I am not aware of any others.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on April 06, 2013, 11:35:27 PMIt all makes sense to me when I think about it. She is kitted out for the exact purpose of killing Farsight, and defending herself from him.
The book Shadowsun explains why she is kitted out the way she is. I do not want to post spoilers so will keep this as simple as I can. The way she is kitted out was not pre planned. More she adopted that style out of need and decided to keep it.
Yes, the book tells you that, but if we take the veiw that the fluff is only telling us what the Tau know, and showing them in the best light, then we can assume that there are things it isn't telling us. It says there are rumours of a secret mission. A mission that she happens to be perfectly equipped for.
Quote from: Pottsey on April 07, 2013, 07:54:56 AM
Quote from: pepsi on April 06, 2013, 11:21:05 PM
Curious. How is Farsight doing against the ORKs? Last time I was reading, his butt was being handed to him.
I just finished reading the The Arkunasha War and in no way did Farsight get his butt handed to him by the Orks. Or did you read a different story? I am not aware of any others.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on April 06, 2013, 11:35:27 PMIt all makes sense to me when I think about it. She is kitted out for the exact purpose of killing Farsight, and defending herself from him.
The book Shadowsun explains why she is kitted out the way she is. I do not want to post spoilers so will keep this as simple as I can. The way she is kitted out was not pre planned. More she adopted that style out of need and decided to keep it.
In the ORK codex there is a story that focuses on a Tau Farsight conflict. The orks had the upper hand this time due in part to their rich status and access to guns. Assumed the Tau codex would shed some light.
So here's a derivation of your list that I'm thinking about
2x Fireblade
2x 12x Firewarriors
3x Ion Accelerator Riptide, bare
3x Ionhead, Bare
3x 6 Pathfinders
Eldrad
2x 3 Jetbikes
Aegis Defense Line
1790, so room to play even after picking a weapon for the defense line.
It should work pretty well although id get some anti air in there probably just by giving those riptides skyfire and putting a quadgun on that defense line. Id also be tempted to switch a few ionheads for railheads just in case you really need to crack some heavy armour.
Not to beat the dead horse from the thread about how Tau are doing against AV13+... but if someone brings a single landraider against that list, he's all but invincible. The riptides can take twin-linked meltas... so if you did go with that list you'd pretty much need to take that option.
3 S9 ordnance has a good shot at stopping a Land Raider [especially with them being so big you should hardly ever miss, you have 2 chances of getting that 6 for the pen and its AP2 for a 1/3 chance to blow it up] plus the key to the list is the fireline behind the aegis, thanks to prescience and the fireblades so long as you keep in support range you will blow away most of a termie squad as they actually charge you.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on April 09, 2013, 06:27:13 PM
It should work pretty well although id get some anti air in there probably just by giving those riptides skyfire and putting a quadgun on that defense line. Id also be tempted to switch a few ionheads for railheads just in case you really need to crack some heavy armour.
I haven't picked up the new rulebook yet so I'm unclear on how skyfire works... I've yet to get on the table in 6th edition.
Figure I'll end up with a quadgun on the aegis line, and maybe find a way to shimmy longstrike into a railhead for anti-tank.
I'm always interested in taking lists that flat don't answer certain things in order to improve matches elsewhere... I'm not entirely certain that a landraider would really do that much harm against the list, even if it did go unimpeded.
Also, get on chat ya lazy smarm.
Quote from: Carrelio on April 09, 2013, 06:29:47 PM
Not to beat the dead horse from the thread about how Tau are doing against AV13+... but if someone brings a single landraider against that list, he's all but invincible. The riptides can take twin-linked meltas... so if you did go with that list you'd pretty much need to take that option.
Echo what Andy said about the s9 ordnance blasts. I may work for longstrike in a railhead, but I'm not decided yet.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on April 09, 2013, 06:33:56 PM
3 S9 ordnance has a good shot at stopping a Land Raider [especially with them being so big you should hardly ever miss, you have 2 chances of getting that 6 for the pen and its AP2 for a 1/3 chance to blow it up] plus the key to the list is the fireline behind the aegis, thanks to prescience and the fireblades so long as you keep in support range you will blow away most of a termie squad as they actually charge you.
See... that's what I thought... unit I ran the numbers...
This is the chance of the Ion Accelerator in it's S9 AP2 Ordinance mode to damage a vehicle.
Ion Accelerator: Nova
AV HP Pen Explode
10 0.28 0.27 0.09
11 0.27 0.25 0.08
12 0.25 0.21 0.07
13 0.21 0.15 0.05
14 0.15 0.09 0.03
That's dreadful.
You're running numbers that are un-adjusted for markerlight BS increases, which, in the current book, is the wrong way to look at things. If you take a hit and work from those numbers (presume 2 markerlights for BS5 if you really need to drop a landraider), you really run quite good odds.
Also consider that with the BS boost cap now gone from markerlights, you can, with some effort, prevent the Riptide Nova Blast from scattering at all.
Let me run the numbers for you guys on an auto-hit blast template; the issue isn't the scatter, it's the overheat.
Quote from: Carrelio on April 09, 2013, 06:41:54 PM
Let me run the numbers for you guys on an auto-hit blast template; the issue isn't the scatter, it's the overheat.
If my understanding is correct, you get to roll for the nova-charge at the beginning of movement, so if you are running three riptides (as the above list is) two of three should get it to go off. With the range of the ion accelerator, you can take the shot from most anywhere on the table for a landraider. If you really are forced into a rough position, you can soak it in markerlights to strip off a cover save and go for a barrage shot.
Yes, you roll at the beginning of the phase for the nova reactor. Then in the shooting phase you roll Gets Hot for another 1/6.
The Ion Accelerator isn't a Barrage weapon. It's Ordnance when Novacharged, but not Barrage.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on April 09, 2013, 06:46:11 PM
The Ion Accelerator isn't a Barrage weapon. It's Ordnance when Novacharged, but not Barrage.
My understanding was that any ordnance weapon could opt to fire in barrage.
Not to my knowledge. Ordnance allows you 2d6 and pick the highest for armour penetration rolls. Barrage is a seperate rule that allows indirect fire with Blast Weapons.
Alright, I've crunched the numbers assuming a direct hit.
Ion Accelerator: Nova, BS10
AV HP Pen Explode
10 0.56 0.54 0.18
11 0.54 0.51 0.17
12 0.48 0.42 0.14
13 0.42 0.31 0.11
14 0.31 0.17 0.06
So assuming my numbers are correct...
An automatic hit, will be much better than BS3 (duh)... however due to the 56% failure rate due to overheating (both from the nova generator itself and Gets Hot!), the nova version of the ion accelerator is still batting less than a hammerhead in the antitank department (though you will strip nearly the same number of hull points a turn), it wounds itself doing so, and it costs more at a baseline.
Of course, as a MC, a Riptide can always fall back on another option and just Smash.
Yes, then it is exactly as potent as a hammerhead railgun. Which is still sub-optimal against a landraider, but against everything else, you'll like be hitting rear armour 10 for an auto pen. Like other close range CC options this one is a very good one, but still raises the problem of getting it there in a reasonable amount of time.
I have mixed fealings about the codex. It was sold out, but I got a chance to read the storecpoy.
First off gun drones cost more while some drones droppedin 1/2.
I think missle drones are awesome with a drone cntroller. The missle pod shots at orc bs for hardly any points is a wtf upgrade. It's rather easy to spam the upgrade. They do limit 2 per squad. However 6 squads of fire warriors with 3 pathfinder squads can easily take 18 drones for 36 str 7 ap 4 shots at 36" range for under 600 points rather easily.
Personally I don't see the need for missle drones on the suits.
I'm surprised Dark Strider wasn't mentioned here. I just bought him cause he's awesome. Ranged rad grenades with the ability to move out of assault range. I can jump out of atransport and double tap with 6 str 6 ap 1 shots and 4 strength 7 shots with extra carbine shots all wounding marines on 2s.
Quote from: Chicop76 on April 09, 2013, 11:36:22 PM
I have mixed fealings about the codex. It was sold out, but I got a chance to read the storecpoy.
First off gun drones cost more while some drones droppedin 1/2.
I think missle drones are awesome with a drone cntroller. The missle pod shots at orc bs for hardly any points is a wtf upgrade. It's rather easy to spam the upgrade. They do limit 2 per squad. However 6 squads of fire warriors with 3 pathfinder squads can easily take 18 drones for 36 str 7 ap 4 shots at 36" range for under 600 points rather easily.
Personally I don't see the need for missle drones on the suits.
I'm surprised Dark Strider wasn't mentioned here. I just bought him cause he's awesome. Ranged rad grenades with the ability to move out of assault range. I can jump out of atransport and double tap with 6 str 6 ap 1 shots and 4 strength 7 shots with extra carbine shots all wounding marines on 2s.
Someone didn't read the day one FAQ :P
Missile drones are only for broadsides.
Quote from: Carrelio on April 09, 2013, 11:37:51 PM
Quote from: Chicop76 on April 09, 2013, 11:36:22 PM
I have mixed fealings about the codex. It was sold out, but I got a chance to read the storecpoy.
First off gun drones cost more while some drones droppedin 1/2.
I think missle drones are awesome with a drone cntroller. The missle pod shots at orc bs for hardly any points is a wtf upgrade. It's rather easy to spam the upgrade. They do limit 2 per squad. However 6 squads of fire warriors with 3 pathfinder squads can easily take 18 drones for 36 str 7 ap 4 shots at 36" range for under 600 points rather easily.
Personally I don't see the need for missle drones on the suits.
I'm surprised Dark Strider wasn't mentioned here. I just bought him cause he's awesome. Ranged rad grenades with the ability to move out of assault range. I can jump out of atransport and double tap with 6 str 6 ap 1 shots and 4 strength 7 shots with extra carbine shots all wounding marines on 2s.
Someone didn't read the day one FAQ :P
Missile drones are only for broadsides.
N(oooooooo
You kidding right.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3130063a_Tau_Empire_v1.0_APRIL13.pdf
It also kind of claims we are Chaos Space Marines...
And it's also a bit like a bad April fools joke, since it's dated April 1st... if only it was...
As an up side it... uh... it RAW lets our warlords take warlord traits...
Edit: also... this is for you:
http://nooooooooooooooo.com/
So, why is longstrike, the fabled Hammerhead Tank Ace, Slayer of Warhounds, only a Shas'la? :facepalm001:
Because Proofreading is never high on GWs list of things to do. Should be a 'Vre at the very least. Maybe even an 'El.
Except that he shouldn't. Being a tank ace, or a fighter ace, simply means you have a high kill count. You can be able to put a bullet through a man's left nut at three thousand paces, but that doesn't mean you can lead armies in battle.
'Cept he is also supposed to be a Tank Commander. And if all his bond mates died in his famous battle, who was driving the tank then? It was before he got the XV-02. Would of thought the crew of each tank would bond with each other, or the crews of a squadron would bond.
Yes, but usually a 'La is a line warrior. A guy with a Pulse Rifle/Carbine who has only passed his first Trial from a 'Saal rank. He shouldn't even have been IN a Tank untill 'Ui rank at least.
No, that doesn't really sound right. Shas'la could well be vehicle crew seeing as it's kind of a basic role, although I suppose a squadron commander would be Shas'ui at least.
The fluff also says that only those of the rank of 'Ui or higher get the honour of wearing Battlesuits. Prototypes or not, you would think he would have taken his second Trial and proven that he is more than just being a good shot before they went to the trouble of making him a unique and expensive item of wargear and giving him his own tank.
Battlesuits are a tad more complex than a tank. Yes, he does have that XV02 Battlesuit, but it's an experimental suit, likely the only one of its kind, so it does make sense it'd be entrusted to the best tank ace the Tau Empire has.
Just keep the context in mind; this guy is not the norm by any measure, in the same way that Pathfinder character is only a Shas'ui / Shas'vre yet should have been promoted countless times by now.
Darkstrider? He currently sits between a 'Vre and an 'El and is kinda off to one side in the command structure.
Officially he is Sub-Commander El'Myamoto.
Funny enough, the way the Tau ranking system works, rank has no relation to experience or battlefield value. Take the Fireblade for example. He simply chooses not to go for the final trial by fire to become a shas'O, but he is theoretically just as skilled (if not more than some). Longstrike could have done the same, and foregone the entire upper echelon of the fire caste system in exchange for his current tasks. Perhaps he's a bit too 'lone-wolf' to play nice with the other fire warriors (certainly makes sense considering he's insisting the drive a whole tank by himself)?
Am I reading this right and Farsight can't take drones? His bodyguards have to take the drones for him?
The Fireblade statline suggests they ARE Shas'Os. They simply don't want to use Battlesuits, feeling they are better suited to groundpounding with the rest of the Firewarriors.
Quote from: Fr05ty on April 10, 2013, 03:38:05 PM
Am I reading this right and Farsight can't take drones? His bodyguards have to take the drones for him?
Correct. Shadowsun is the only named character that can buy drones. Named characters can't normally be modified.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on April 10, 2013, 03:41:10 PM
The Fireblade statline suggests they ARE Shas'Os. They simply don't want to use Battlesuits, feeling they are better suited to groundpounding with the rest of the Firewarriors.
Longstrike's statline suggests that he is as skilled as a Shas'o, citing "an almost innate ability to handle a Hammerhead" but ranking in the Tau castes have a requisite amount of time at each level. Citing his innate ability to pilot a Hammerhead to explain his BS5, Tank hunter/Preferred Enemy falling under the same mantle, there is nothing to suggest that Longstrike has been enlisted for more than four years, which is the required amount of time before he can stand trial by fire to make Shas'ui.
Quote from: Tybalt Defet on April 10, 2013, 01:49:46 PM
'Cept he is also supposed to be a Tank Commander.
Going off British Army, that only makes him a corporal at the least.
Also, could be a way to skirt bureaucracy. If the rules say at a certain rank, off you go and start your Crisis training but the senior officers (and longstrike himself) don't actually want him in a suit (even if only to test the new toys), his promotion paperwork keeps getting sadly forgotten about. ;)
In the ranks of the Tau it is more that everyone has a position that they excel in and they can chose to stay there. There is no shame in being a lower rank if it is the best use of your skills.
Quote from: Chicop76 on April 09, 2013, 11:36:22 PM
I have mixed fealings about the codex. It was sold out, but I got a chance to read the storecpoy.
First off gun drones cost more while some drones droppedin 1/2.
I think missle drones are awesome with a drone cntroller. The missle pod shots at orc bs for hardly any points is a wtf upgrade. It's rather easy to spam the upgrade. They do limit 2 per squad. However 6 squads of fire warriors with 3 pathfinder squads can easily take 18 drones for 36 str 7 ap 4 shots at 36" range for under 600 points rather easily.
Personally I don't see the need for missle drones on the suits.
I'm surprised Dark Strider wasn't mentioned here. I just bought him cause he's awesome. Ranged rad grenades with the ability to move out of assault range. I can jump out of atransport and double tap with 6 str 6 ap 1 shots and 4 strength 7 shots with extra carbine shots all wounding marines on 2s.
The drones have already been covered, however I think it's also worth pointing out that to be effective they'd need markerlights really, and spamming them reduces the amount of markerlights you could take. However other options could be more useful without markerlights, or with the markerlights you can buy instead of the missile drones. :P
As for Darkstrider, I think ranged rad grenades are exactly the reason he
wasn't mentioned here. As was pointed out when Codex: Dark Angels came out, rad grenades were more than bad enough when they were combat only. Suddenly making them ranged attacks made them broken beyond belief. The fact that Tau now have essentially the same thing makes them culprits/victims (depending on view point) of using the pathetic new rules being introduced. (Note: I'm not saying all the new rules are pathetic, but rad is one I definitely disagree with)
Darkstrider's rad grenade ablity is quite reduced by the fact that there's only one of him. Its a cool toy, but I don't think its particularly game breaking, since it will only work on one squad.
Quote from: Carrelio on April 10, 2013, 07:34:30 PM
Darkstrider's rad grenade ablity is quite reduced by the fact that there's only one of him. Its a cool toy, but I don't think its particularly game breaking, since it will only work on one squad.
That's why I was, sooo exicted with the missle drones. Sure the bs is pretty bad, but for almost 20 points I get 4 str 7 shots with good range and ap. It's a must have to equip a drone controller on the squads you do choose to use these bad boys on.
Going back to darkstrider is that he makes str 7 weapons able to insta kill marines. Also what's nice is the str 6 ap 1 rapid fire rifles will hurt MCs on 3s. In other words boost a pathfinder squad bs up and rapid fire with the strength 6 and even the strength 5 shots will wound on 4s. Throw in missile drones you have a good chance of killing any MC in rapid fire range. If not than the MC can die to overwatch death with the squad running away.
I think Darkstrider is awesome. Wounding marines on 2s, even t7 creatures will be wounded on 5s.
Now that Shadowsun can be used is stealth squads that's 4 meltas in one squad if done right can fire at 4 differant targets. Sadly one has to go with rest of the squad.
My character pics so far is Shadowsun and Darkstrider.
Quote from: Carrelio on April 10, 2013, 07:34:30 PM
Darkstrider's rad grenade ablity is quite reduced by the fact that there's only one of him. Its a cool toy, but I don't think its particularly game breaking, since it will only work on one squad.
Being less commonly available doesn't stop it being a bloody stupid rule. Even with just him you can lower a Scarab squad to T2 then take them out with Pulse Rifles, insta-gibbing a base at a time. Or you can lower a squad of Tyranid Warriors to T3 and insta-gib them with plasma. You should not be able to reduce an enemy's toughness without them having at least a chance of stopping it. It's stupid, nonsensical and completely removes any notion of sensible unit costing because suddenly models are paying for stats that they don't actually have.
A new possibility that I'm really keen to try is a Commander + Bodyguards being tank hunters. Get the Neurochip and the Onager gauntlet and if you don't down what you shot at by shooting you can go in and try a S10 AP1 attack that re-rolls penetration. That's a ~30% chance to destroy something outright if you penetrate, right?...
I've always wanted to make the suits jump in, beat something and run; finally seems like I've found a reason to, all 3 of them would be able to deal 13 attacks on the charge at S5, 5 of them at WS4 I3 and the rest at WS2 I2, not much against anything heavily armored, but a barrage beforehand could help.
Even better, Missile Pods with a Cyclic Ionic Blaster could mean that the commander is dealing 5 S7 AP4 shots a turn to the side of a vehicle with Armourbane or choose Monsterbane and go hunting for Monstrous Creatures. Switch for Plasma Rifle, or Fusion Blaster and tailor it to your will.
Any comments on this?
Right now I am thinking Farsight Bomb with attatched SM Librarian with Gate of Infinity. Some TL Flamers, some Fusion, some Missile some Plasma, telporting around the table risk free because of Farsights Warlord Trait. And Shadowsun attatched to a Riptide with HBC so that it can Jet Pack 3d6 and re-roll its Gets Hot! results.
I have yet to see any required firewarriors like last dex... yay! You can literally do kroot, imperial guard allies, and vespid... I like the vespid a bit more now since they actually have a better save, and weapon range. They are more expensive than marines, but can jetpack and 18 inch gun you. Kind of nice.
I don't have my book, but what does intercepter do???
Anyway at first glance the Riptide I wasn't going to use at all, but I noticed a few reasons to take him.
1. Str 8 ap1 large pie plate for starters. You can make it strength 9 ordanance if needed at greater risk, but at strength 8 it's more than likely do the job you need it to do.
In a pinch you have a triple shot plasma that can fire across the board.
2. It can skyfire ifyou want it to. Let's see it can move 6+4d6" which means easy twin linked melta in the face, three str 7 ap 2 shots, and it can take 2 missle pods for 4 str 7 ap 4 shots as well.
I have a question, if the suit have shyfire does the gun drone attachments have it as well.
Anyway another thing I notice is riptides volume of fire. Maxed out it can fire 32 times. That's eight twin linked no line of sight, no cover saving strength 5 ap 5 shots, plus 20 strength 6 ap 4 shots that rend, and four strength seven ap four shots. Punisher tank has nothing on that.
Scared of the scarry Blodthirster. It's ok, this puppy can dish out 7 str 7 ap 2 shots to give the Thirster a bad day with skyfire or 20 strength 6 rending shots ca be equally effectice on top of 4 plasma.
I think the biggest sell for the riptide is that it can dish out 4 str 10 hits on a charge, including hammer of wrath. In essence that's 6 strength 10 attacks it can dish out rather easily.
I would't assault anything greater than ws 4 that I can't instant kill, but it does give you a melee option. 10 marines with a power fist sargent will have problems. Sure the combat will last foreve and they can tie him up, but unless they have several fist they can't do nothing to him. All you do is issue a challenge and you kill the upgrade charater. If he denies than no fist attacks. It's win win. Personally if you go str 10 mode you can dish out 2 attacks whih one can easily go through and instant kill, plus you always have a +3 invulnerable you can use as well.
Darkstrider with a Grav-inhibitor drone is my new cup of tea. I can lower toughness, decrease your charge range by d3 and run d6 in the opposite direction. That's 2-9" of charging denial. Thy can be 1" away and still can't assault you. With average rolling of 5" the enemy on average will need to be at least on average within 6" away from you to get you. On average rolling from them they will have to be 2" away to be able to assault you. Anything farther away will be unlikely. Plus over watch shooting.
I was reading a bit more and now realized how markerlight over watch comes into play.
Let's say you have a 12 man team of pathfinders and they get assaulted. If so that means 2 marker light hits on overwatch. Let's continue to say that a rip tide with 24 shots is sitting right next to that 12 man pathfinder squad. If you take the bs 2 upgrade and use the 2 lights he can fire upon the unit assaulting the pathfinders at bs 4. If you continue this what if and say there is another 12 man pathfinder squad nearby and put 2 more marker shots on charging unit. Than the riptide will be shooting at bs 6.
I now thinking about taking marker drones for this reason. It will increase my overwatch accuracy and help with skyfire as well.
"Anyway another thing I notice is riptides volume of fire. Maxed out it can fire 32 times. That's eight twin linked no line of sight, no cover saving strength 5 ap 5 shots, plus 20 strength 6 ap 4 shots that rend, and four strength seven ap four shots. Punisher tank has nothing on that."
What what what?
SMS - 4 Shots
HBC - Novacharged - 12 Shots
Missile Drones - 4 Shots
20 Shots. Where do you get 20 HBC shots from? And you only have single TL SMS.
"Scared of the scarry Blodthirster. It's ok, this puppy can dish out 7 str 7 ap 2 shots to give the Thirster a bad day with skyfire or 20 strength 6 rending shots ca be equally effectice on top of 4 plasma."
7 S7 AP2? From where? 3 from the Ion Accelerator, 2 from the Plasma but that only S6. Or 4 from the missile but they are only AP4.
"I think the biggest sell for the riptide is that it can dish out 4 str 10 hits on a charge, including hammer of wrath. In essence that's 6 strength 10 attacks it can dish out rather easily."
The Riptide is Jet Pack, not Jump Pack so it doesnt get Hammer of Wrath. And it only gets 3 Attacks on the charge, down to 2 if you choose to Smash for the S10. The Drones, if taken, attack at their own profile.
I made a mistae with the 12 shot and said 20, but the rip tide can fire these systems twice.
Twin sms
Twin plasma
Twin fusion
Meaing
8 smart missle shots
2-4 plasma shots
2 melta shots
It can fire Ion or heavy burst cannon
8 str 6 ap 4 shots
12 str 6 ap 4 shots
3 str 7 ap 2 shots
Large str 8 ap 2
Large str 9 ap 2 ordanance
Plus 2 missle drones
4 strength 7 ap 4 shots.
If max out shooting that's 12+8+4= 24 shots max from this unit
Vs Bloodthirster within 12" range
4 plasma shots, rapid fire and 3 Ion Shots for seven str 7-6 ap 2 shots. With 4 strength 7 shots that can add in.
So used to plasma being strength 7 I forget it's strength 6 for Tau, which is why I am using fusion over plasma with this guy.
It has 3 strength 10 smash attacks:
3 attacks normal which is 1.5 in half which you round up for 2 per rules. You still get the +1 attack for the charge so it's 3 smash attacks on the charge. I forgot about no hammer of wrath attacks
Im not sure that is how Smash works. You would halve your total number of attacks surely? So 4 total down to 2.
I forgot about the Novacharged secondaries. My bad.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on April 11, 2013, 01:40:34 PM
Im not sure that is how Smash works. You would halve your total number of attacks surely? So 4 total down to 2.
I forgot about the Novacharged secondaries. My bad.
Ok here is how Smash works, I steal forget about hammer, etc. Been smashing with daemons and been forgeting about my extra attacks.
Let's say you are FateWeaver for example which Smash is a good option since you have 1 attack.
He will get 1 smash attack, 1 for charging, and 1 for hammer of wrath( which I have to look to see if strength 5 or 10)
So 2 smash attacks and 1 hammer
If you a blood thirster with 7 atttacks, 6 base +1 2cc
You will have 4 smash attacks and +1 due to charge and +1 due to hammer for 6 hits
The reason it's 4 and not 3 is because you round up not down. I been doing only 4 missing out on all my extra stuff.
Also I thought you half your attacks with the +1 included. That's a no. You don't count the plus one until you half the attacks and round up. Which means a 3 attack model will have the same smash attacks as a 4 attack model.
Hince smash is a lot better than what most people think.
Quote from: Chicop76 on April 11, 2013, 10:41:14 AM
I don't have my book, but what does intercepter do???
All you do is issue a challenge and you kill the upgrade charater. If he denies than no fist attacks. It's win win. Personally if you go str 10 mode you can dish out 2 attacks whih one can easily go through and instant kill, plus you always have a +3 invulnerable you can use as well.
Let's say you have a 12 man team of pathfinders and they get assaulted. If so that means 2 marker light hits on overwatch. Let's continue to say that a rip tide with 24 shots is sitting right next to that 12 man pathfinder squad. If you take the bs 2 upgrade and use the 2 lights he can fire upon the unit assaulting the pathfinders at bs 4. If you continue this what if and say there is another 12 man pathfinder squad nearby and put 2 more marker shots on charging unit. Than the riptide will be shooting at bs 6.
I now thinking about taking marker drones for this reason. It will increase my overwatch accuracy and help with skyfire as well.
Interceptor allows you to fire at a unit entering play from Reserve as it comes onto the board, assuming you're in range. You lose that weapon for the next shooting phase though IIRC.
Sorry, your challenge idea with the Riptide won't work. The Riptide is
not a Character. Monstrous Creatures aren't Characters by default, that's why a Trygon isn't a Character but a Trygon Prime is.
Also ALWAYS having a 3++ is wrong. It only works if you Novacharge the Sheild Generator. That can fail, or you could have used the Nova on some other system.
Never said he always have a +3 invl. Just said he has one, or have acess to one. Vague means you read book no???
Dammit. You're right about that, so ignore the challenge thing unless you playing against Chaos Space Marines who has to challenged, or anyone stupid enough to challenge the riptide.
For some reason I assumed MC's can just challenged. Well the riptide should stay out of combat anyway. Although giving the tide bs 2 for over watch and having 2 pathfinder teamsnear by can help irradicate what ever is trying to charge him.
Intercepter seems like a cool ability. My questioon is does it work once or every time something comes on the field. Also do you delclare what weapon system has it or not. Like for the riptide's case I fire my ion or heavy burst cannon with interceptor. If like my fusion is in range I can opt to fire it as well, or not to shoot it, so I can fire it in the shooting phase since my Ion or Cannon can't fire.
Looking through the book I noticed all suits, vehicles via smart missiles can sky fire. However if you willing to pay the price litterally than go ahead. However broadsides and the riptides seem to scream skyfire on me please and or intercepter.
Also thumbing to the book it's very easy to negate cover saves. First off you have marker lights, next you have sms that can also hit targets you can't see, next seekers can do so( bye bye jink saves). I seen people say why the skyray. I say sky ray be blowing up dem flyers that's why ( sky fire plus ignore cover saves), next you have a support system that allows the suits squad to ignore cover saves if the bearer doesn't fire ( stealth suit goodness and O'Shova's samarai 7). Not to mention for a 6 man stealth team you can have 2 suits with fusion and skyfire, one suit sit there and allow the others to ignore cover. NVM the deny is only for crisis suits :(
Even so you can have 3 crisis suits deny cover and sky fire. Without the use of marker lights I might add.
If done right 25% of your army can easily smash any air units. I thought Dark Angels was bad in this department, but Tau has the anti air mantle.
Thinking about it the commander is the only one that can use signiture systems for HQ. That being said put him with broadsides and now the sides can ignore cover saves and have skyfire. Meaning strength 8 ap 1 loving with no jink saves.
Going back to what I was saying about my stealth suits throw him in there and they can have twin linked shooting, ignore cover, and make your meltas sky fire you're good.
It gets even better. Take an etheral with a commander. Put commander in squad which squad ignores cover and have twin linked guns. Etheral or FireBlade adds +1 to their shooting.
With so much stuff it's taking awhile to figure out what I want to field. It is nice that O'Shova no longer restricts your army. He is a nice added anti tank, but with the overwatch goodness if done right whatever gets close enough to get in combat range may not even make it to combat.
Lol. My commander get's stealth and shrounding with stealth suits. Irdium armour check, twin linked goodness check, 4 missile drones check, ignore cover check.
"All you do is issue a challenge and you kill the upgrade charater. If he denies than no fist attacks. It's win win. Personally if you go str 10 mode you can dish out 2 attacks whih one can easily go through and instant kill, plus you ALWAYS have a +3 invulnerable you can use as well."
Emphasis mine.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on April 11, 2013, 06:29:26 PM
"All you do is issue a challenge and you kill the upgrade charater. If he denies than no fist attacks. It's win win. Personally if you go str 10 mode you can dish out 2 attacks whih one can easily go through and instant kill, plus you ALWAYS have a +3 invulnerable you can use as well."
Emphasis mine.
Always as in an option. Like the United States can always nuke Iraq, but doesn't do so. Meaning you have a +3 save to fall back on. Not meaning you can always use it. I probably should had said you can always probably attempt to use the +3 save lol.
I keep reading, but it seems like they hosed pathfinders in the book. They have many toys, but with a +5 save it means a lot of cover save denial weapons can kill them. Skullcannon, whirlwind, etc.
I'm thinking pathfinders hide in their nice tranport. Looking at the rapid firing rail gun option itmeans death to most models and can be nice rear armor shots. The more I think about them the more I think about using my transport and have them double tap targets. Yes firewarriors can do the same at cheaper cost, but they do not have 3 rail guns.
That being said I am trying to figure out a source for my marker lights besides my path finders. For almost 40 points my troop squads can have 3. And around 80 points you can have 6 marker lights. I do not want to count the chracter up grade cost since you should take him for higher leadership anyway.
Next is marker light drone squads. A few points more, but worst bs for better toughness and saves. Also you only can fire either marker lights or burst instead of the pathfinders that can switch between two weapons.
The best marker source I seen is the sniper drone guy which you can take 3 per squad. The problem here you are taking a heavy option. Also the sniper rifles is much to be desired. Although the Etheral can make them shoot twice.
The next option is the sky ray followed with the bomber. The SMS missles and 6 seeker missles seems ok. It means less broadsides or hammerheads. If it was a fast option I would field it, but it's hard to decide with it taking up a heavy option. I know I am running hammerhead and broadsides, but I do not know if I want two hammerheads or 1 right now. Out of experance I use to run no less than 5 and it still felt like it wasn't enough.
Get your pathfinders in nice cover. They have shifted the balance of power hugely for me. The BS limit has been removed, so you can now go past BS5. Use that in conjunction with Overcharged Ion Cannons or Novacharged Ion Accelerators and you wont ever scatter.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on April 11, 2013, 07:07:22 PM
Get your pathfinders in nice cover. They have shifted the balance of power hugely for me. The BS limit has been removed, so you can now go past BS5. Use that in conjunction with Overcharged Ion Cannons or Novacharged Ion Accelerators and you wont ever scatter.
The problem is no matter how good the cover is if I'm being hit with a whrilwind or skull cannon I pretty much just lost that squad. The skull cannon I can take out if I go first, but a whirwind is a bit harder to get too.
At the two stores I play at and including me I can easily count almost 15 skullcannons in the area. I run with 2 for a reason. Any way aegis defense line with camo cloaks have players playing more cover save denial than when first started out.
Quote from: Chicop76 on April 11, 2013, 06:16:24 PM
Dammit. You're right about that, so ignore the challenge thing unless you playing against Chaos Space Marines who has to challenged, or anyone stupid enough to challenge the riptide.
For some reason I assumed MC's can just challenged. Well the riptide should stay out of combat anyway. Although giving the tide bs 2 for over watch and having 2 pathfinder teamsnear by can help irradicate what ever is trying to charge him.
That still doesn't work. You can only challenge a character. As the Riptide isn't a Character it can't be challenged or issue a challenge, meaning the entire squad are free to attack as normal.
Interceptor works each time something comes in, but you can only use each weapon once a turn. So if 2 fliers come in on the same turn but you only have 1 weapon with interceptor you can only fire at one of them.
Quote from: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on April 11, 2013, 08:06:21 PM
Quote from: Chicop76 on April 11, 2013, 06:16:24 PM
Dammit. You're right about that, so ignore the challenge thing unless you playing against Chaos Space Marines who has to challenged, or anyone stupid enough to challenge the riptide.
For some reason I assumed MC's can just challenged. Well the riptide should stay out of combat anyway. Although giving the tide bs 2 for over watch and having 2 pathfinder teamsnear by can help irradicate what ever is trying to charge him.
That still doesn't work. You can only challenge a character. As the Riptide isn't a Character it can't be challenged or issue a challenge, meaning the entire squad are free to attack as normal.
Interceptor works each time something comes in, but you can only use each weapon once a turn. So if 2 fliers come in on the same turn but you only have 1 weapon with interceptor you can only fire at one of them.
Darn again lol. Need to reread that section again on challenges.
That being said Interceptor is an upgrade so you choose which weapon has it, one weapon has it, only ones you fire has it, etc. Purtide has the upgrade and not he weapon. It makes a differance since do I fire one or all my weapons. If it's all weapons rather if I fire it or not I might as well shhot them all.
The problem with the suits they can have easily 3 weapons on them. If I take 3 I use one for interceptor and use the other 2 next turn.
Besides DA I don't really see the need for Interceptor, oh yeah flyers. Anyway I rather have skyfire over Interceptor anyway. If the skyray had interceptor that would be awesome.
Anyway nix combat keep purtide out of it. Lol.
For the point and how to best get markerlights in the list, people in my area are running a tough commander [2+sv, T5, Drone Controller] with Marker Drones. The Commander takes the hits for the units whilst the Drones light things up thanks to BS5.
Personally, I think your better off with cheap pathfinders in cover or Eldrad [who does everything a markerlight does but better, with divination he can ignore cover, he can have you be more accurate by re rolling misses and he can make an enemy unit re roll saves].
For markerlight support we might consider a light cascade effect.
Start with a central source of lights: pathfinders, markerdrones, or even the skyray.
Each team of fire warriors then takes 2 marker drones and a drone controller.
The intial source starts the lights off, and they continue to cascade through the whole army.
this works particularily well because it means you can support your whole fire base with a single unit, leaving another couple FOC slots to support your more lonewolf teams like battlesuits, riptides, hammerheads, etc. It also means that the lights are much harder to remove from the list.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on April 12, 2013, 12:06:43 PM
For the point and how to best get markerlights in the list, people in my area are running a tough commander [2+sv, T5, Drone Controller] with Marker Drones. The Commander takes the hits for the units whilst the Drones light things up thanks to BS5.
Personally, I think your better off with cheap pathfinders in cover or Eldrad [who does everything a markerlight does but better, with divination he can ignore cover, he can have you be more accurate by re rolling misses and he can make an enemy unit re roll saves].
(http://d22zlbw5ff7yk5.cloudfront.net/images/cm-42827-050e66c48e21e1.jpeg)
But seriously... I play both. Lets you run triple missileside and just annihilate units every turn.
Pathfinders die to a swift wind now that they have 5+ armor, and they WILL be targeted early once your opponent realizes how deadly Markerlights are.
A pimped-out Shas'O is so much deadlier, and I shudder as to what allies will be like.
Would you like re-roll to hits, ignore cover and/or Tank Hunters with that, Gue'vesa?
Best,
-BT
P.S. Shadowsun+Fortuned Seer Council = SAD PANDA
Lol yeah Shadowsun with a Bike Council is terrible although it is kind of funny that Tay make that unit so good for much cheaper but they are also the army that will probably make the Bike Council die out thanks to Markerlights. No cover saves and then broadsides to pound the unit despite its re rolls.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on April 14, 2013, 12:43:43 AM
Lol yeah Shadowsun with a Bike Council is terrible although it is kind of funny that Tay make that unit so good for much cheaper but they are also the army that will probably make the Bike Council die out thanks to Markerlights. No cover saves and then broadsides to pound the unit despite its re rolls.
Hmmm that means the bikes have a +2 cover save when they move. Wow. That with fortune means that unit won't die to ranged attacks.
Bike councils have always ran a 2+ cover with a re roll but shadowsun lets you do it with only 1 farseer so you can do it with Tau as your primary which is pretty huge as it means you can have a good army backed up by a bike council.
Honestly landraiders are not to big of a deal since a riptide can fire two melta shots and than assault with 3 strength 10 hits. However that's one package he may not like opening up.
That aside armour 14 is really hard to deal with even with bs 10 rail guns that deny cover.
I was thing Grey Knights may cause problems for Tau maybe not.
There is some things I noticed and used in a few games.
Commander with Marker drones in stealth squad or Marker drone squad. The commander makes all drones bs 5. It takes pathfinders out of the equation due to both squads being more durable and more reliable on marker hits.
Shadowsun joining squads for +2 love. From pathfinders to broadsides I seen this done really well.
However what I seen is 36" range deny cover and follow up with the riptides pie plate of doom. This has have the most devestating effect I seen so far.
Armour 14 I can see being a problem until you melt the vehicle away. Even so I haven't seen Tau get assaulted to even say if the over watch actually is effective or not. All the games I seen Tau has completly wiped out anyone that even gets close to assaults. 12 fire warriors at bs 5 firing 36 times easily wipes out any squad that gets close.
Armour 12 is nothing, but armour 13 gives alittle trouble to the army.
Even guard I don't know how they will stand. Now a days guard has been taking troop heavy armies falling back on cover saves galore to carry the day. The New Tau will destroy this concept and force guard to armour up once again. That being said. If guard goes russ heavy I see guard maybe winning.