Heya all, I would like some serious opinions about how you would go about cracking my army (Barring IG of course, as their guns are just way more numerous, cheaper and has a longer range than my own guns which puts them at a considerable advantage over my Dark Eldar). The reason why I ask this is because I noticed that a lot of players are quite overwhelmed by what I have and personally as a player I feel that they are not truly looking at the right places. Of course, since I played Dark Eldar for so long, it feels that sometimes it is not obvious to me as to how people tend to not see the seams of my army.
Here is my list for 2000 pts, which is the norm in my area.
Archon with Huskblade, Soul-trap, Combat Drugs, Phantasm Grenade Launcher and Shadowfield
Haemonculus with liquifier gun
5 Incubi with Klaivex upgrade on Raider with Dark Lance*
2 squads of 3 Kabalite Trueborn with Blasters on Venoms with second Splinter Cannons
3 squads of 5 Kabalite Warriors with a Blaster on Venoms with second Splinter Cannons
2 squads of Kabalite Warriors with a Blaster on Raide with Dark Lancer*
2 squads of 6 Reaver Jetbikes with 2 Heat Lances
2 Ravagers with three Dark Lances*
1 Razorwing with 4 Monoscythe missiles, 2 Dark Lances, a twin-linked Splinter rifle and Flickerfield
*Bare bone, no defensive upgrades whatsoever unless it is provided in the rules as in the case of the Venoms with their Flickershield
Apparently this list is causing a lot of headaches from everyone except IG, and even the IG players said that if I got the right moment I could win (Really? :-\). So I guess I would like to ask you guys about what you think are the strengths of my Dark Eldar, weaknesses, and what would you do against me as I would like to see from another player's perspective as to how they would actually negate my strengths and such. The terrain in my area tends be balanced, with a 55% ruins and 45% everything else.
C&C is much appreciated for this simulation.
I'd do what I always do: BIKER NOBZZZES RAAARGH!
Seriously though, I've never seen my biker nobz get successfully shot up before they reach you and tear apart all of your tanks and ranged units. With 4+, 5++, automatic 4+ cover, and FNP, plus T5 and a T6 Warboss, it takes massed S10 shots that deny cover in order to really put on the hurt. And even then, I only need to get 2-3 guys across (That is, my 2-3 power klaws) in order to rip you apart.
Beyond that, I'd take lootas in order to shred your flyers (They do take a BS penalty, but since we are only BS2 anyways that doesn't matter much,) with anywhere from 15-45 S7 shots, and hordes of dirt-cheap boys to soak up firepower.
One problem I see with your list is massed killpoints. It's lots of units, even for 2000 points, so on certain game types a power-unit (that is, few but powerful units instead of lots of cheap cannon fodder) enemy will easily win if you can't wipe them off the board. Admittedly I don't know much about Eldar specifically, but from what I know they aren't the hardest guys to kill when it comes to survivability.
Then again, I haven't played Dark Eldar in a long time so I could be completely off on that, it's just my 2 cents.
Ok, 2 questions: 1) Dark Lances or Disintegrators on the Raiders? 2) No Night Shields on the Venoms?
My personal opinion would be to focus fire on the venoms, bring them down as quickly as possible. Once they're gone you have precious little anti-infantry for a 2k list, and your highly vulnerable warriors would be slowed considerably. A well written force should be capable of inflicting damage on at least 3 Venoms first turn. (Apart from my Khorne force but they're pure combat :P )
After that I'd probably target the Ravagers and Reavers and from there on in there shouldn't be too much of a threat.
Admittedly, that makes it sound far simpler than it actually is to do these things, but that would be my personal target priority. I find myself wondering how a hypothetical SMurfs list I was working on would do against this. I may have to find a way to write it up and then face you via Vassal if possible.
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on January 08, 2013, 01:16:53 AM
Ok, 2 questions: 1) Dark Lances or Disintegrators on the Raiders? 2) No Night Shields on the Venoms?
My personal opinion would be to focus fire on the venoms, bring them down as quickly as possible. Once they're gone you have precious little anti-infantry for a 2k list, and your highly vulnerable warriors would be slowed considerably. A well written force should be capable of inflicting damage on at least 3 Venoms first turn. (Apart from my Khorne force but they're pure combat :P )
After that I'd probably target the Ravagers and Reavers and from there on in there shouldn't be too much of a threat.
Admittedly, that makes it sound far simpler than it actually is to do these things, but that would be my personal target priority. I find myself wondering how a hypothetical SMurfs list I was working on would do against this. I may have to find a way to write it up and then face you via Vassal if possible.
Dark Lances on raiders, and no nightshields for Venoms. You are right that the venoms are perhaps my best anti-infantry and if they are gone, I only got my Reavers, Incubi, Archon, Haemonculus, and Razorwing to handle infantry. Need to edit the first post to point out the lances and the lack of nightshields.
Of course I could always take Nightshields, but the question is what I should take out to arm every vehicle in my army with Nightshields. Not to mention that I am often really far away, so I am not sure if I really require Nighshields all the time.
Quote from: Waaaghpower on January 08, 2013, 12:16:55 AM
I'd do what I always do: BIKER NOBZZZES RAAARGH!
Seriously though, I've never seen my biker nobz get successfully shot up before they reach you and tear apart all of your tanks and ranged units. With 4+, 5++, automatic 4+ cover, and FNP, plus T5 and a T6 Warboss, it takes massed S10 shots that deny cover in order to really put on the hurt. And even then, I only need to get 2-3 guys across (That is, my 2-3 power klaws) in order to rip you apart.
Beyond that, I'd take lootas in order to shred your flyers (They do take a BS penalty, but since we are only BS2 anyways that doesn't matter much,) with anywhere from 15-45 S7 shots, and hordes of dirt-cheap boys to soak up firepower.
One problem I see with your list is massed killpoints. It's lots of units, even for 2000 points, so on certain game types a power-unit (that is, few but powerful units instead of lots of cheap cannon fodder) enemy will easily win if you can't wipe them off the board. Admittedly I don't know much about Eldar specifically, but from what I know they aren't the hardest guys to kill when it comes to survivability.
Then again, I haven't played Dark Eldar in a long time so I could be completely off on that, it's just my 2 cents.
Poison takes away the toughness equation for Dark Eldar, and the combined might of splinter cannons and Dark Lances would at least the Nobs and Warboss to take a leadership test. Of course, I personally would prefer to gun down lootas before Nobs, but it depends on the situation.
As for the kill points, Dark Eldar is not known to have less than 10 KP to begin with, so it is a given more or less and something that I will have to take like a man.
Quote from: crisis_vyper on January 08, 2013, 02:01:13 AM
Dark Lances on raiders, and no nightshields for Venoms. You are right that the venoms are perhaps my best anti-infantry and if they are gone, I only got my Reavers, Incubi, and Razorwing to handle infantry. Need to edit the first post to point out the lances and the lack of nightshields.
Ok. so you have more anti tank than I first thought, though admittedly less anti-TEQ. The other advantage of taking out the Venoms quickly, apart from the loss of the splinter cannons, is the mobility. Blasters are mid-range and need to be up close for maximum effectiveness, without the Venoms that would be difficult to manage, especially with such small squads.
I think, depending on the terrain and dice obviously, my 6 Tactical 3 Devastator SMurf list could do ok against this list. The lack of Night Shields means your vehicles can't kite the heavy bolter-toting Devs. Could be an interesting match.
Out of interest, how soundly do you tend to win? Are you regularly tabling opponents without much trouble or are you just snatching victory but often enough that it seems to be a matter of course?
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on January 08, 2013, 02:09:43 AM
Ok. so you have more anti tank than I first thought, though admittedly less anti-TEQ. The other advantage of taking out the Venoms quickly, apart from the loss of the splinter cannons, is the mobility. Blasters are mid-range and need to be up close for maximum effectiveness, without the Venoms that would be difficult to manage, especially with such small squads.
I think, depending on the terrain and dice obviously, my 6 Tactical 3 Devastator SMurf list could do ok against this list. The lack of Night Shields means your vehicles can't kite the heavy bolter-toting Devs. Could be an interesting match.
Out of interest, how soundly do you tend to win? Are you regularly tabling opponents without much trouble or are you just snatching victory but often enough that it seems to be a matter of course?
Yeah it could be interesting when I face off against 90 Marines (unless your Devastators are 5-men squads). That will take a while to kill off.
I noticed that players often take only one large TEQ squad and then spam on the rest or at least that is the trend among those that could take a TEQ squad. But that saying, they are often close combat-oriented, so I tend to fly around and ignore them with my speed. I am seeing more and more infantry though, so even I believe that perhaps a pure Venomspam is more powerful. However, I tried to keep my list as balanced as possible just in case I face off against some stupid Land Raider list or something. My Raiders and Ravagers I think are somewhat my anti-air too come to think about it.
If it is not IG, I often table or cripple at least 60-80% of their forces, especially when they are Marines I guess due to my preference to killing/crippling long-range multiple shot weaponry units first and with Marine armies they could only put so much into one army at a time. If it is IG, it is either I am dead fast, or I am pulling a victory from the teeth due to me playing to the mission. But that saying IG is
the most powerful army in 40k when it comes to shooting and even the most stalwart Marines would cringe at them and Dark Eldar has little protection from their onslaught.
With Daemons I would hate going up a list like that. With guard when I went against a list like that is I pop the vehicles and flame what pops out.
My combat experance would say a foot heavy swarm army that have shooting and flame would give that list problems. Multi poison against hordes of 6 point models is realy nottoo effective. Average venom with 12 shots would hit 8 times and kill 4 models with poor saves. Against Tau that's two models and against nids on orcs it's 4 with causing 20 points woth of damage.
Be that as it may I would say pop the flyers and flame what is on the ground. I think a well pu together sister force would do well against that. The only armies I see really strugglig with it is armies in the 50 models and below.
Lack of lang range and mobility and low model count would be owned by that list.
I will say that armies that can field a lot of str 7 and higher fire power would do realy well. Especailly if they have long range capabilities. Orcs is a good example and Tau as well. Grey Knights is one, but that 24" range is going to hurt that army type.
With my daemons I can roughly dish out 8 str 8 shots which I would be able to down 3 flyers or maybe 4. If I can't put a good showing first turn I would have seroius problems with that list.
Hi Crisis,
Well, I've been thinking on this one, and I think one list that would give you a lot of problems would be Necron Air Force with Wraithwing backup.
6 Night Scythes with Warriors
18 Wraiths
Overlord, Stormteks and Doom Scythes to flavor
Basically, you can't kill all 18 wraiths in 1-2 turns, and then the Scythes come in, which will down 2-3 vehicles a turn, meaning that you can't really protect yourself from Warriors who will drop in on turn 5 to take objectives anywhere they please on the board. The idea is to saturate the area with Flyers and use them to block movement from any infantry, as you can't end your turn under a flyer.
But, granted you need someone who's skilled with a large Flyer army, as you could outmaneuver them if they let you...
Best,
-BT
Quote from: BigToof on January 08, 2013, 02:40:07 PM
Hi Crisis,
Well, I've been thinking on this one, and I think one list that would give you a lot of problems would be Necron Air Force with Wraithwing backup.
6 Night Scythes with Warriors
18 Wraiths
Overlord, Stormteks and Doom Scythes to flavor
Basically, you can't kill all 18 wraiths in 1-2 turns, and then the Scythes come in, which will down 2-3 vehicles a turn, meaning that you can't really protect yourself from Warriors who will drop in on turn 5 to take objectives anywhere they please on the board. The idea is to saturate the area with Flyers and use them to block movement from any infantry, as you can't end your turn under a flyer.
But, granted you need someone who's skilled with a large Flyer army, as you could outmaneuver them if they let you...
Best,
-BT
Forgot about necrons heavy tesla guns. Tesla guns and crypteks with their flamers.
I honestly think I would lose against this list almost 100% of the time if I were to use the models I own (or even if I owned all the models I'd like) :facepalm001:
12 quick moving vehicles is a LOT of targets, and each one is a threat in itself, and each one carries a threat inside!
I think I'd have to spam Autocannon havocs. Three units of them with 4 cannons and some ablative wounds. Chuck in a ADL with Quadgun and there's my main firebase.
Two Helldrakes would be nice as well. Hopefully Meteoric Descent will be dangerous enough to take out one or two things and then burninate the stuff stuck on the ground but that Razorwing looks scary.
Even with this foundation I think I'd struggle against the sheer volume of the Dark Eldar list.
As a Necron player with a marked distaste for any flying circuses that aren't British television shows, I find myself wondering how an old school "appallingly huge Warrior phalanx backed by Monoliths" army might fare. It strikes me that this just might be enough durable infantry spam to sponge up lots of that firepower, and to threaten the large swarm of vehicles through sheer brute volume-of-fire generating enough Gauss autoglances to ping them to death. And Monoliths haven't stopped dropping nasty gauss pies or being AV14, even if Living Metal isn't as good as it used to be... Maybe some big Scarab swarms to screen fire and omnom targets of opportunity, too.
What do the rest of you think, am I onto something here or would this list get demolished along with my self-delusions?
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 08, 2013, 06:37:41 AM
With Daemons I would hate going up a list like that. With guard when I went against a list like that is I pop the vehicles and flame what pops out.
My combat experance would say a foot heavy swarm army that have shooting and flame would give that list problems. Multi poison against hordes of 6 point models is realy nottoo effective. Average venom with 12 shots would hit 8 times and kill 4 models with poor saves. Against Tau that's two models and against nids on orcs it's 4 with causing 20 points woth of damage.
Be that as it may I would say pop the flyers and flame what is on the ground. I think a well pu together sister force would do well against that. The only armies I see really strugglig with it is armies in the 50 models and below.
Lack of lang range and mobility and low model count would be owned by that list.
I will say that armies that can field a lot of str 7 and higher fire power would do realy well. Especailly if they have long range capabilities. Orcs is a good example and Tau as well. Grey Knights is one, but that 24" range is going to hurt that army type.
With my daemons I can roughly dish out 8 str 8 shots which I would be able to down 3 flyers or maybe 4. If I can't put a good showing first turn I would have seroius problems with that list.
Very astute observation Chicop, as Guard is my bane as stated in the first post. Orks I can handle to an extent as a result of the normal template that is running around these days. Grey Knights, rarely so.
Sisters of Battle actually surprised me, and made me think a little as my Dark Eldar has not been tested against them before. I would be interested to know why and how actually.
Quote from: BigToof on January 08, 2013, 02:40:07 PM
Hi Crisis,
Well, I've been thinking on this one, and I think one list that would give you a lot of problems would be Necron Air Force with Wraithwing backup.
6 Night Scythes with Warriors
18 Wraiths
Overlord, Stormteks and Doom Scythes to flavor
Basically, you can't kill all 18 wraiths in 1-2 turns, and then the Scythes come in, which will down 2-3 vehicles a turn, meaning that you can't really protect yourself from Warriors who will drop in on turn 5 to take objectives anywhere they please on the board. The idea is to saturate the area with Flyers and use them to block movement from any infantry, as you can't end your turn under a flyer.
But, granted you need someone who's skilled with a large Flyer army, as you could outmaneuver them if they let you...
Best,
-BT
One of those nightmare lists huh? But that saying, you are right in a number of assessments........ :shifty:
Oddly enough my Necron experience actually pits me off against a lot of those smaller shooty skimmers with (I think they are called Annihilation Barges), with two flyers tops and lots of those Transports things with warriors. That one is actually quite fun to face off against, but once I noticed the range of their guns, I just decided to play my game of 36". But it would be definitely interesting to see what happens when they will be in their effective range.
In addition Bigtoof, based upon what you see how would you see my list work and its strengths, and how I play them? You are perhaps the only Dark Eldar compatriot that constantly plays with Dark Eldar often. Your feedback would be much appreciated.
Quote from: Isaac Baraqiel on January 08, 2013, 11:14:56 PM
As a Necron player with a marked distaste for any flying circuses that aren't British television shows, I find myself wondering how an old school "appallingly huge Warrior phalanx backed by Monoliths" army might fare. It strikes me that this just might be enough durable infantry spam to sponge up lots of that firepower, and to threaten the large swarm of vehicles through sheer brute volume-of-fire generating enough Gauss autoglances to ping them to death. And Monoliths haven't stopped dropping nasty gauss pies or being AV14, even if Living Metal isn't as good as it used to be... Maybe some big Scarab swarms to screen fire and omnom targets of opportunity, too.
What do the rest of you think, am I onto something here or would this list get demolished along with my self-delusions?
Monoliths are not amazing in the sense that Lances are their bane. But the infantry side of things would be interesting to face against. Scarabs......I am honestly not sure, as I do not see them anymore. They died with 5th edition, and the Flying Circus took their place.
Quote from: Fhanados on January 08, 2013, 09:49:59 PM
I honestly think I would lose against this list almost 100% of the time if I were to use the models I own (or even if I owned all the models I'd like) :facepalm001:
12 quick moving vehicles is a LOT of targets, and each one is a threat in itself, and each one carries a threat inside!
I think I'd have to spam Autocannon havocs. Three units of them with 4 cannons and some ablative wounds. Chuck in a ADL with Quadgun and there's my main firebase.
Two Helldrakes would be nice as well. Hopefully Meteoric Descent will be dangerous enough to take out one or two things and then burninate the stuff stuck on the ground but that Razorwing looks scary.
Even with this foundation I think I'd struggle against the sheer volume of the Dark Eldar list.
The facepalm reaction is something I see often these days with my Dark Eldar, which kinda sucked my enthusiasm about my Dark Eldar.
Just the other day, I was playing in an Apocalypse battle with more or less this list (with some upgrades of course) minus a Kabalite Warrior Venom squad, and instead put in two more aircrafts and two wyches in Raiders and I am apparently the only player that did not pick an Apoc formation and yet crippled an entire armoured formation by myself (Of course with the help of Flank March and a Hierophant Bio-titan placed under my command). Everyone was shocked (including myself) at how I killed off the main push into my team's deployment zone and they are forced to turn their Reaver Titan and Stormravens towards me to save their flank. Of course a few of my own vehicles and crews died, but fully 60% of my forces were alive by the end of the game and due to my team's efforts we are able to win the game overwhelmingly. There was a lot of facepalm on the opposing team when I did what I did.
Anyway back to topic....
Two Helldrakes could do a number on my force I would admit, but I may be able to gun them down. Of course the rest of the Chaos List could make or break a battle against my army though.
The reason I say sisters would be a good match for these reasons.
1. They can horde with marine saves. The amount of flame this army can dish out is rather nice. I mention flame and rapid fire death due to this army is rather good at it.
2. Exorcist: with average rolling an exorcist should easily down a boat. The ap 1 on top of open topped will be nasty against boats. Was very effective against them last edition, although front 13 is not much help.
The army have acess to crusadrs and deathcult for counter charging and if Jacobs hops a long the unit is very nasty.
Now my experance is old sisters in 5th against dark eldar in 5th. The best part of the poison attacks is that they do the same thing against my sisters as they do marines. Meaning like in the above scenrio of 12 shots, 8 will hit, 4 will wound and 1 sister or 1 marine will die. This is where the sisters have a better advantage is that there is more sisters that marines than will be on the field due to a marine costing about 5 points more than a sister. With 10 marines I could have 13 sisters insteaed and against eldar shooting it shows.
The problem with sisters they are a medium range army like the grey knights. The huge differance however they specalize in hopping in and out of rhinos. They can get cross the field faster. Although lance hits do some damage against rhinos.
Tau weakest weapon can glance death your low hull point vehicles.
The best way to defeat that army is to pop the fragile vehicles and run circles around your guys and shoot them to death.
Personally this is where I see the Eldar being nerfed from last edition. You see less boats and less lance weapons from long range.
The main problem I see with this list besides the Incubi and Archon you have no bite in close combat. Also your lance concertration is more towards tougher armies. Example is marines which a few lance weapons will hurt them. While against sisters it will hurt but not as badly. Against. Hordes it's like you really shot me with that.
I think the list is geared for anti marine, death guard, terminator, and similar type list. Horde orcs for example with a ton of str 7 shots, mass orcs, and a few rockets here and there would give this list a hard run.
The problem is when it comes down to it a 6 point orc can shot twice wounding on 3s denying saves while a 10 point model does the same thing. However on hits on 5s compared to the other that hit on 3s.
90 points in orcs is 18 orcs, assuming they fire twice that's 36 shots with 13 hits, 9 wounds meaning 9 dead eldar that is 90 points.
On the other hand 90 points in eldar is 10 guys. Giving them double tap it is 20 shots, rougly 14 shots, giving them 14 rounding in their favor. 7 would wound killing 7 orcs which is roughly less than half of the eldar losses in points.
In essence just standard shooting vs shoting within 18" out in the open orcs will seriously out gun eldar. Homagaunts is just as deadly as the orcs.
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 09, 2013, 03:16:20 AM
The reason I say sisters would be a good match for these reasons.
1. They can horde with marine saves. The amount of flame this army can dish out is rather nice. I mention flame and rapid fire death due to this army is rather good at it.
2. Exorcist: with average rolling an exorcist should easily down a boat. The ap 1 on top of open topped will be nasty against boats. Was very effective against them last edition, although front 13 is not much help.
The army have acess to crusadrs and deathcult for counter charging and if Jacobs hops a long the unit is very nasty.
Now my experance is old sisters in 5th against dark eldar in 5th. The best part of the poison attacks is that they do the same thing against my sisters as they do marines. Meaning like in the above scenrio of 12 shots, 8 will hit, 4 will wound and 1 sister or 1 marine will die. This is where the sisters have a better advantage is that there is more sisters that marines than will be on the field due to a marine costing about 5 points more than a sister. With 10 marines I could have 13 sisters insteaed and against eldar shooting it shows.
The problem with sisters they are a medium range army like the grey knights. The huge differance however they specalize in hopping in and out of rhinos. They can get cross the field faster. Although lance hits do some damage against rhinos.
Fair enough, though horde sisters is kinda rare though especially with those metal ones. I also played SoB but I have not much experience with the new WD codex.
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 09, 2013, 03:16:20 AM
Tau weakest weapon can glance death your low hull point vehicles.
Another fair point, though I know how Tau works in and out to such an extent that I know how to kill them effectively.
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 09, 2013, 03:16:20 AM
The best way to defeat that army is to pop the fragile vehicles and run circles around your guys and shoot them to death.
I can't argue here. Agreed.
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 09, 2013, 03:16:20 AM
Personally this is where I see the Eldar being nerfed from last edition. You see less boats and less lance weapons from long range.
The main problem I see with this list besides the Incubi and Archon you have no bite in close combat. Also your lance concertration is more towards tougher armies. Example is marines which a few lance weapons will hurt them. While against sisters it will hurt but not as badly. Against. Hordes it's like you really shot me with that.
I think the list is geared for anti marine, death guard, terminator, and similar type list. Horde orcs for example with a ton of str 7 shots, mass orcs, and a few rockets here and there would give this list a hard run.
I kinda took the odd evolution I guess for 6th edition, as almost everyone decided to take a whole lot less vehicles and it plays to the Dark Eldar strengths. I instead actually changed my list very little other than to take out two wych squads, a Blasterborn squad and a Haemonculus for two Reaver squads and a Warrior squad in Venom. Of course, I could always do a Venomspam with three Voidravens as my army, but I knew that such a list would earn so much hatred from both myself and my opponents. Right now my list is somewhat in that zone where it is powerful enough against most opponents I meet, but has a hard counter to it. Not to mention that in a general tournament or normal play in the US, Marines are perhaps the predominant army around which shaped the evolution of this list as this army was build in the US rather than back home in Malaysia, where I have a myriad of opponents from many different races.
The Archon and the Incubi are not so much a crack assault unit, but are more or less an unit which hunts down weakened units or IG blob killers. The Reavers act as supporting units for the Archon and Incubi if they are able to. I will of course have to remedy this if I once again prowl the tabletops of Malaysia or a place where there is a more balanced presence among the races.
It's not a bad list. Just my thoughts about Dark Eldar come down hard on them more than other armies. The advantage of the army is lance technology and mobility as an over all army advatage. The ranged poison is an advantage as well as a disadvantage depending on who you face, against marines it is ok due to majority of everyone else has str 4 weapons and does the same thing, against toughness 3 or lower it turns into a drawback, and against toughness 5 and higher it turns into a boon. I rank poison as ok due to it is not an advantage all the time, not to mention your higher output and heavy weapons also happens to be poison.
Although they do not have the range lance death of old. They do have a huge number of lance weapons they can take. Most players will field vehicles are some sort of elite models where the weapons are indead a boon. From warriors, swarms, or any toughness 4 model with mulitiple wounds without eternal warrio will be turn into paste. Tau Crisis suits cry foul as they get lance shots square in th chest. No other army can dish as much lance output and even most armour 14 vehicles are reduced to armour 12, although crons can do the same, but not as effective.
My gripe with the army is when it comes to troops they are not really threating are have real bite. The reason why I say this is half of the other armies troops you actually fear. Orcs and guard for example with their huge 30 plus model mobs, tyranid gaunts that can re roll hits in shooting and combat and re roll wounds in combat, bike troopers, grey knights any troop option, terminators, etc. Tau falls in the same line as dark eldar.
Not saying wracks and wytchs are not scarry. Just saying a basic marine squad with a power sword sarge can give the squad a run for their money. Either can win depending who charges who. The problem is a basic marine squad can't deal with 30 orcs with da powa fist em dem. I use marines as a guideline since 1/2 the armies are a marine type army and it seems everyone plays marines. In my opnion table top marines are not that threating and I find them easier to beat than let' say Dark Eldar. Not saying Marines suck. Just saying I rather fight 50 marines than 200 orcs. Also add in that marines luck is a big factor while with orcs you have so many that luck is not abig factor. If you roll five ones for marines it's the end of the world, with Orcs it doesn't matter, it matters for dem 2 wound terminators, which the extra wound makes up for bad rolling.
Dark Eldar is what I call an inbetween army. It is more forgiving than a marine army, but like a marine army you fell your losses. While nids, orcs, guard, tau( I fielded horde type Tau before), Chaos Marines now, sisters( going horde) laugh at bad rolls and losing a handful of models.
Hi Crisis,
From what I've read of your reps and seeing how your list runs, I'd say that you run a very mobile, shooty force that runs by using Ravagers as primary tank busters, followed by Trueborn and the Reavers as secondaries. You have a lot of poison shots from the Venoms and plenty of mobility as you have a lot of Skimmers. Also, you have anti-elite assault elements from the Archon and Incubi.
I think it's a solid list that will have trouble with the usual problems, mostly when a list can either consistently outrange and outshoot our skimmers (i.e. Imperial Guard) or are too tough to deal with out of assault (i.e. Terminators). Necron Air Force does have the problem with them flooding the board with a unit that we just can't touch, which is, to put it mildly, hard to counter. Not to say that it's impossible, but harder than other lists which are leaning more towards less mobile gunlines with some mech elements to back them up.
Likewise, Dark Eldar is very, very fragile so the element of luck can come back to hit you in the face, just because we need to rely on our Dark Lances, and as I'm sure you know, they can be finicky.
So you don't have that many bad matchups, but unfortunately one army is very common (IG), but I think they give trouble for everyone...
Best,
-BT
Quote from: crisis_vyper on January 08, 2013, 02:01:13 AM
Quote from: Waaaghpower on January 08, 2013, 12:16:55 AM
I'd do what I always do: BIKER NOBZZZES RAAARGH!
Seriously though, I've never seen my biker nobz get successfully shot up before they reach you and tear apart all of your tanks and ranged units. With 4+, 5++, automatic 4+ cover, and FNP, plus T5 and a T6 Warboss, it takes massed S10 shots that deny cover in order to really put on the hurt. And even then, I only need to get 2-3 guys across (That is, my 2-3 power klaws) in order to rip you apart.
Beyond that, I'd take lootas in order to shred your flyers (They do take a BS penalty, but since we are only BS2 anyways that doesn't matter much,) with anywhere from 15-45 S7 shots, and hordes of dirt-cheap boys to soak up firepower.
One problem I see with your list is massed killpoints. It's lots of units, even for 2000 points, so on certain game types a power-unit (that is, few but powerful units instead of lots of cheap cannon fodder) enemy will easily win if you can't wipe them off the board. Admittedly I don't know much about Eldar specifically, but from what I know they aren't the hardest guys to kill when it comes to survivability.
Then again, I haven't played Dark Eldar in a long time so I could be completely off on that, it's just my 2 cents.
Poison takes away the toughness equation for Dark Eldar, and the combined might of splinter cannons and Dark Lances would at least the Nobs and Warboss to take a leadership test. Of course, I personally would prefer to gun down lootas before Nobs, but it depends on the situation.
As for the kill points, Dark Eldar is not known to have less than 10 KP to begin with, so it is a given more or less and something that I will have to take like a man.
DO NOT target lootas over biker nobz. Seriously, that will get you slaughtered every time.
You have one turn to destroy biker nobz, because once they assault you will die. (I've never been bested in close combat by a single unit with them. A couple monstrous creatures or multi assaults from a close combat army, but never 1 on 1.) I don't know how many other ork players use my strategies, but Biker Nobz are incredibly powerful.
A couple other words of advice:
Don't count on a leadership test making us run. With a boss, I'm leadership 9 and with a bosspole, I get a re-roll on that.
Also don't count them as broken (IE worthless) until every man in the unit is dead. It only takes 1 left to still be a very valid, deadly fighting force.
One thing, though, while you should focus on them, killing the Lootas is by no means a bad idea. I'd just suggest you keep threat assessment in mind: Lootas can cause a lot of hurt, but they sometimes fail to do anything for a turn or two when you roll a '1' for the number of shots you get.
Quote from: Waaaghpower on January 09, 2013, 08:09:59 PM
DO NOT target lootas over biker nobz. Seriously, that will get you slaughtered every time.
You have one turn to destroy biker nobz, because once they assault you will die. (I've never been bested in close combat by a single unit with them. A couple monstrous creatures or multi assaults from a close combat army, but never 1 on 1.) I don't know how many other ork players use my strategies, but Biker Nobz are incredibly powerful.
A couple other words of advice:
Don't count on a leadership test making us run. With a boss, I'm leadership 9 and with a bosspole, I get a re-roll on that.
Also don't count them as broken (IE worthless) until every man in the unit is dead. It only takes 1 left to still be a very valid, deadly fighting force.
One thing, though, while you should focus on them, killing the Lootas is by no means a bad idea. I'd just suggest you keep threat assessment in mind: Lootas can cause a lot of hurt, but they sometimes fail to do anything for a turn or two when you roll a '1' for the number of shots you get.
Lootas are more deadly to me than a bunch of Bikers to be honest, and from my experience Nobs are not a problem as Focus Fire and the right angling will allow me to kill the important models that I need. I do not need to kill them all, I just need to kill the models that matter. Leadership test for them is a bonus of course, and killing the squad off is amazing, but for my purposes, Nobs are the
least of my concern. No offense though for your advocacy of their bite, as I do have an Ork army. Not to mention that the use of the unit depends on how the general uses them so even I can't say anything much about the tactic that you use to bring them closer.
And for the 'never bested in CC before' mindset, you really need to face off against some Paladins. Combine their Rad Grenades and their psychic stuff, you will find them a worthy opponent. I personally never underestimate my opponents unless their list really did not respect my options (in other words, no long range weaponry).
On average each Loota will be able to bring two shots per turn (counting averages here) and thus they are a threat. If there is something that can down a skimmer at range reliably every turn, I will kill them
without hesitation unless situation dictates so. Even if they roll 1s, the fact still remains that if I let them live, my skimmers will be going down once a turn.
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 09, 2013, 02:02:52 PM
My gripe with the army is when it comes to troops they are not really threating are have real bite. The reason why I say this is half of the other armies troops you actually fear. Orcs and guard for example with their huge 30 plus model mobs, tyranid gaunts that can re roll hits in shooting and combat and re roll wounds in combat, bike troopers, grey knights any troop option, terminators, etc. Tau falls in the same line as dark eldar.
Dark Eldar is what I call an inbetween army. It is more forgiving than a marine army, but like a marine army you fell your losses. While nids, orcs, guard, tau( I fielded horde type Tau before), Chaos Marines now, sisters( going horde) laugh at bad rolls and losing a handful of models.
Well, if given a choice I would not even want to have foot soldiers. But that saying, only Guard pose a problem to me while Orks feel alright to me. I believe it is due to the range of their guns. Nids I often just try to kill the synapses.
For me Marines are easier to make mistakes with at times than Dark Eldar, especially firing arcs. But of course you are right that casualties count.
Quote from: BigToof on January 09, 2013, 07:53:47 PM
From what I've read of your reps and seeing how your list runs, I'd say that you run a very mobile, shooty force that runs by using Ravagers as primary tank busters, followed by Trueborn and the Reavers as secondaries. You have a lot of poison shots from the Venoms and plenty of mobility as you have a lot of Skimmers. Also, you have anti-elite assault elements from the Archon and Incubi.
I think it's a solid list that will have trouble with the usual problems, mostly when a list can either consistently outrange and outshoot our skimmers (i.e. Imperial Guard) or are too tough to deal with out of assault (i.e. Terminators). Necron Air Force does have the problem with them flooding the board with a unit that we just can't touch, which is, to put it mildly, hard to counter. Not to say that it's impossible, but harder than other lists which are leaning more towards less mobile gunlines with some mech elements to back them up.
Likewise, Dark Eldar is very, very fragile so the element of luck can come back to hit you in the face, just because we need to rely on our Dark Lances, and as I'm sure you know, they can be finicky.
So you don't have that many bad matchups, but unfortunately one army is very common (IG), but I think they give trouble for everyone...
I am surprised with the Terminator comment, but otherwise I believe that your assessment of the weakness of my list is sound. How would you improve my list if it could be improved even further?
I did have a long detailed post but my laptop died and I lost it :-\. So in short, any army with decent long ranged fire and/or a decent air force will always give an army like this big problems. A lot of the time an army like this needs to go first for the win, going second against a well made force with decent firepower will mean losing too much of the army for a viable fightback. You can mitigate the AA problem with eldar and you can mitigate the enemy firepower with night shields on every skimmer. Even Necron Barges take out Venoms as despite a 24'' gun they can move 12'' and are seriously dangerous with snapshots thanks to twin linking and tesla. Without the Venoms you cant take out the Wraith spam.
Even using these things to mitigate these weaknesses it is still a massive struggle to get over going second as there is never enough terrain to hide all those skimmers. When ive ran my own venombuild against my own wolf/guard I lose about 4-5 venoms if I go second. Thankfully you usually have a 50/50 chance of first turn then you also have a chance of night fight which also keeps the DE army safe for a turn so that it can get the alphastrike in but it is a glaring weakness that is very hard to deal with besides hoping to go first or to get night fight. You can further mitigate it by giving yourself a chance of choosing night fight with your warlord traits but thats the best we can do.
I would put in the anti air and night shields though, this makes your army next to impossible to defeat for all those top armies right now that arent playinga long ranged game [necrons, gk, daemons, nids]. Daemons are actually a bit of a threat without night shields as Kairos, Flamers with their normal shooting attacks and Daemon Princes can all take out venoms but their guns are short ranged, with night shields theres a good chance they wont be in. You need those Venoms to gun them down.
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 09, 2013, 02:02:52 PM
Not saying wracks and wytchs are not scarry. Just saying a basic marine squad with a power sword sarge can give the squad a run for their money. Either can win depending who charges who.
If that's what you think then you haven't seen a properly kitted out Wych squad. I've had 1 Wych squad tie up half an army before now, and hold their own while doing it. Hydra Gauntlets are a godsend. :P
As for improving your list Vyper, the only thing I can think of would be to add Night Shields so that you can kite Heavy Bolters and the like, trouble is finding the points. I'd suggest dropping 1 Reaver from each squad to get Nightshields on just a couple of your vehicles, but then that's costing you the second Heat Lance so I'm not sure. :-\
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on January 09, 2013, 09:25:16 PM
I did have a long detailed post but my laptop died and I lost it :-\. So in short, any army with decent long ranged fire and/or a decent air force will always give an army like this big problems. A lot of the time an army like this needs to go first for the win, going second against a well made force with decent firepower will mean losing too much of the army for a viable fightback. You can mitigate the AA problem with eldar and you can mitigate the enemy firepower with night shields on every skimmer. Even Necron Barges take out Venoms as despite a 24'' gun they can move 12'' and are seriously dangerous with snapshots thanks to twin linking and tesla. Without the Venoms you cant take out the Wraith spam.
Even using these things to mitigate these weaknesses it is still a massive struggle to get over going second as there is never enough terrain to hide all those skimmers. When ive ran my own venombuild against my own wolf/guard I lose about 4-5 venoms if I go second. Thankfully you usually have a 50/50 chance of first turn then you also have a chance of night fight which also keeps the DE army safe for a turn so that it can get the alphastrike in but it is a glaring weakness that is very hard to deal with besides hoping to go first or to get night fight. You can further mitigate it by giving yourself a chance of choosing night fight with your warlord traits but thats the best we can do.
I would put in the anti air and night shields though, this makes your army next to impossible to defeat for all those top armies right now that arent playinga long ranged game [necrons, gk, daemons, nids]. Daemons are actually a bit of a threat without night shields as Kairos, Flamers with their normal shooting attacks and Daemon Princes can all take out venoms but their guns are short ranged, with night shields theres a good chance they wont be in. You need those Venoms to gun them down.
You have caught on to something very subtle but very important for my army; I love night fighting. I even take the Strategic Warlord trait to take advantage of that as well. And the terrain thing is kinda true now that I think about it as I rarely put my forces in reserve these days. I tried to veer away from the alpha strike gameplan, but the thing is that the edition is soo shooty now that the evolution of this army is becoming a little bit more specialized to alpha strikes.
Such is the Dark Eldar dillemma.
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on January 09, 2013, 09:36:14 PM
As for improving your list Vyper, the only thing I can think of would be to add Night Shields so that you can kite Heavy Bolters and the like, trouble is finding the points. I'd suggest dropping 1 Reaver from each squad to get Nightshields on just a couple of your vehicles, but then that's costing you the second Heat Lance so I'm not sure. :-\
Both you and Veq may be right in regards to this, as I noticed that one day I will come face to face with some Air Force army, and I believe that Nightshields are really good in this edition. I can always take out the Incubi and the Haemonculus/Archon to spare the points for taking some allies to compensate for it.
@Veq; Next to Impossible? Those are some big words there, but I wanna have that kind of army....... :o
1. Never said Wytchs couldn't tie units. Just saying wracks can do the same and depending on what they tying up. Low wound power weapon units great. Lots of wounds no.
2. Orc bikes against crusaders and deathcult with rad and psychotroke techmarine with +2 invul in combat, or Skulltaker on juggernaught with a full squad of bloodcrushers could take on that squad rather easily. I wouldn't say orc bikers are the scarriest thing the orcs can throw out. Alli can say is this, Vindicare and psyker battle squad or flamers of tzeentch would fix that problem.
3. Not saying Daemons can't down the skimmers. Just saying all those poison attack is a bother. However flamers and screamers would do fine. If lucky 3 flamer squads can take out 3 boats with fateweaver and others hopefully taking out 2 or 3 more. My concern is my flamer squads after the boats are downed. However assaulting them wouldn't be on of the wisest things to do.
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 10, 2013, 05:02:09 AM
2. Orc bikes against crusaders and deathcult with rad and psychotroke techmarine with +2 invul in combat, or Skulltaker on juggernaught with a full squad of bloodcrushers could take on that squad rather easily. I wouldn't say orc bikers are the scarriest thing the orcs can throw out. Alli can say is this, Vindicare and psyker battle squad or flamers of tzeentch would fix that problem.
Not talking Ork Bikers, talking Nob Bikers. Whole other potato, buddy. (Though I will concede that Monstrous Creatures, Walkers, and a couple other really powerful units can best them in close combat. In that case, though, I'd pound them to death with my guns and avoid combat as long as possible.
Quote from: Waaaghpower on January 10, 2013, 05:27:00 PM
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 10, 2013, 05:02:09 AM
2. Orc bikes against crusaders and deathcult with rad and psychotroke techmarine with +2 invul in combat, or Skulltaker on juggernaught with a full squad of bloodcrushers could take on that squad rather easily. I wouldn't say orc bikers are the scarriest thing the orcs can throw out. Alli can say is this, Vindicare and psyker battle squad or flamers of tzeentch would fix that problem.
Not talking Ork Bikers, talking Nob Bikers. Whole other potato, buddy. (Though I will concede that Monstrous Creatures, Walkers, and a couple other really powerful units can best them in close combat. In that case, though, I'd pound them to death with my guns and avoid combat as long as possible.
Thunderwolves and the list goes on. I ment Nob bikers and not th one wound bikers. Thanks to 6th the would allocation trickery is a bit harder to pull off than in 5th. I fear a ton of str 7 shots than a huge point sink in my opinion. I see them usually wth warboss included easily worth 25%-35% ofyour army. Some things in 40k makes them go bye bye rather easily, like a grey knight libby who flames them with that I check flame weapon. Not saying they are not a threat. I seem them on the same lines as a Tyranid death star unit, it' simpressive until some armies gimmickws wipes them off the board. I for one love gimmicks and love to use them hich pays off sometimes.
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 10, 2013, 05:02:09 AM
1. Never said Wytchs couldn't tie units. Just saying wracks can do the same and depending on what they tying up. Low wound power weapon units great. Lots of wounds no.
Wyches are FAR better at holding that Wracks, their invun plus more attacks and higher initiative is invaluable. Especially as they cost the same to begin with. I would consider trying to get some Wyches into this list to be honest, but I'm not sure it's all that worth it.
Crisis: If you want night shields, just drop the Haemonculus. Given that he's got a liquifier gun that should free up enough points for Night Shields on most of your vehicles. Playtest that, see how it works out for you and then go from there. Night Shields should especially help against Guard actually. If you can immobilise their Chimeras you can then laugh and safely sit outside multilaser range. :)
Yeah Nob Bikers arent a big threat to this kind of list, their effective range is 30'' which is easily countered by this fast moving DE army even without skimmers. The mass of poison wounds will bring them down, the DE cant deal with them in combat but the skimmers can certainly deal with them.
Lootas are the big threat from Orks as they can pop 3 skimmers a turn at extreme range and 45 of them are hard to shoot down from cover. If the Lootas go first its probably going to be a bad game for the DE, they are the priority target.
The problem with Wyches is that they dont work as a tar pit if they get shot at, Wracks can at least take a little firepower. I really rate Wracks with Liquifier Guns. Some in a Venom means that if the add model is going to sneak through and get a charge on your Venom once they have cornered you and being shot up, the Liquifier Gun should down them on the way in with overwatch or can beat them in combat. Wyches are great for cheap haywires though. Small units of them in Venoms for added anti tank is quite nice.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on January 10, 2013, 06:56:42 PM
Yeah Nob Bikers arent a big threat to this kind of list, their effective range is 30'' which is easily countered by this fast moving DE army even without skimmers. The mass of poison wounds will bring them down, the DE cant deal with them in combat but the skimmers can certainly deal with them.
Lootas are the big threat from Orks as they can pop 3 skimmers a turn at extreme range and 45 of them are hard to shoot down from cover. If the Lootas go first its probably going to be a bad game for the DE, they are the priority target.
The problem with Wyches is that they dont work as a tar pit if they get shot at, Wracks can at least take a little firepower. I really rate Wracks with Liquifier Guns. Some in a Venom means that if the add model is going to sneak through and get a charge on your Venom once they have cornered you and being shot up, the Liquifier Gun should down them on the way in with overwatch or can beat them in combat. Wyches are great for cheap haywires though. Small units of them in Venoms for added anti tank is quite nice.
The grenades are a good choice for the wyches as an extra anti vehicle deterent. I think it would be good for anti dreadnought.
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on January 10, 2013, 06:05:17 PM
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 10, 2013, 05:02:09 AM
1. Never said Wytchs couldn't tie units. Just saying wracks can do the same and depending on what they tying up. Low wound power weapon units great. Lots of wounds no.
Wyches are FAR better at holding that Wracks, their invun plus more attacks and higher initiative is invaluable. Especially as they cost the same to begin with. I would consider trying to get some Wyches into this list to be honest, but I'm not sure it's all that worth it.
Crisis: If you want night shields, just drop the Haemonculus. Given that he's got a liquifier gun that should free up enough points for Night Shields on most of your vehicles. Playtest that, see how it works out for you and then go from there. Night Shields should especially help against Guard actually. If you can immobilise their Chimeras you can then laugh and safely sit outside multilaser range. :)
It depends what they are tying up. A bloodthirster for example I rather wracks be in combat with it than wytches. On only wound on 6s while the other wound on 4s. Although the wytches would last longer. Although you have to keep in mind wracks are t4 instead of t3, so after your boat explodes, overwatch, etc. You will have more wracks than wytchs getting into combat. Even if you drop out the boat succesfully overwatch is still a factor. Most overwatch shots are deadly to wytches while the wracks can shrug them off. The higher toughness also factor in with the wors save. The only real benefit wytches have is the minus attacks and the upgrade character.
I'll use Tau for example.
12 fire warriors fire 24 overwatch shots.
4 hit wounding on 2s likely killing 4 wytches
Against Wracks
4hit wounding on 3s killing 2 wracks
The differance in combat wracks get to re roll wounds
Let's say 20 guardsmen is swinging at both units
Against wytches we will minus 2 attacks for 18 attacks
9 hit, 4.5 wound, 2.25 die
Same against wrackss
20 attacks, 10 hit, 3 wound, 2 die
Roughly the same thing. Keep in mind though the more wytches assault the more loses you will take over wracks.
Which one is better in assaults
Wracks against guardsmen again
10 wracks for 30 attacks
20 hit
15 wound
10 dead guardsman
W/ power weapon on Acothyst
4 attacks
3 hit
1.5 dead extra guardsman
11.5 guardsman total
Wyches
10 for 30 attacks
20 hit
10 wound
7 dead guardsman
Sybarite same as above
Total 8.5 guardman
Let's pay more hydragauntlets, which to be honest If wyches take two than the wracks of course will take their two random flame templates, which they have a good chance 50% of hurting marines.
For giggles let's. They get the max 10 attacks extra, +2 was included earlier at the top.
10 attacks
7 hit
3.5 wound
2.5 guardsman die
Total 11
Even with the hydragauntlets at max effect they just slightly under the wracks when it comes to vs guard.
The wytches I 6 is helpful to hit first before they are struck. Although keeping in mind the overwatch losses it is not really something they have over the wracks.
Against str 6 and higher wyches actually becomes more durable in combat, vs. Str 8 and higher the differance really shows. If you see terminators with power fist throw wyches at them.
On the flip side when faced against toughness 3 or better the wracks simply do better. Against t3 they get to re roll and even against a wraith lord they still wounding on 4s. When you hit toughness 2 and lower wyches start to do more damage, and how my toughness 2 models are out there, sadly there is more t6 models out there than t2.
Well I'll do one more scenrio to show I am not biased. To be honest they perform the same to me. I personally would rather wracks or throw a hamey with the wyches. In this scenrio they are assaulting marines in cover. A squad of 10 normal marines with missle launcher, flammer, and power fist. I would throw in a combi-flamer which I see people starting to pick up, but to play nice for the wyches I won't add it.
First the wyches with hydragauntlets 2 and a agoniser
Over watch wall of fire hits 2 times wounding on 3s. 2 dead wyches
15 bolt shots where 2 hit, really 2.5 but earlier I rounded up. 2 more dead wyches
Almost forgot wyches can shoot pistols. 10 shots, 7 hit, 3.5 wound. 1 dead marine
That slighly changes the above, so I will say 3 dead wytches
23 attacks with 6 wytches including hydra
12 hit
4 wound
1 dead marine +1 due to agoniser for 3 dead marines
6 marines hit back
3 hit
2 wound
1 dead wytch while the pf sargent will kill another, I rounded down earlier and this is close to one with 2 dead wtches in combar
So round one 3 dead marines and 5 dead wyches. I could go on with is, but you get the general point. As a side not it would benefit either side to challenge. The eldar upgrade character have a better chance of killing the marine upgrade character. For simplicity I didn't include. Realistically it is sound for both sides to accept although the eldar upgrade have a decent chance .75 to kill the marine while on the flip side the marine have a .5 chance. It does make a differance where a conservative player may decline meaning one less dead wytch
Ok the wracks turn. 3.5 is average for the flame template, to be fair I decided to do on str 3 ap 4 and a ap 4 str 3. It can go to str 6 ap 1, but the 50% chance of bypassing marine armour is very real. Looking at the book the str is set and the ap is random, so I will have one template bypass armour and one that do not.
Flame template set up can be random from covering 10 models to as many as 1-3. I will go with 6 as a good number. I was thinking 5, but 6 is a nice whole number.
Wracks flamer one kills 3 marines, while flamer two kills one
4 marines dead
Over Watch
Flamer hit twice wounding once killing 1 wrack, .66% chance
9 rapid fire shots, 1.5 hit, .75 wound, .50% chance of killing wrack so I will still go with one wrack dead overall 1.16 is closer to one than two.
Marines go first since in cover. 5 marines attack back
2.5 hit
1.25 wound
1 dead wrack for 2 total
21 wrack attacks
12 hit
6 wound
2 dead marines
Power sarge kills another wrack for 3 total
Acolyte attacks 3 attacks 1.5 hit .75 kills a marine
So in this case you have 6-7 marines dead with 3 dead wracks
I may be slightly off, but the math is still close enough.
My opinion wracks are more well rounded than wyches. Let's not do the comparison to the untis when your boat blows up. With the change in fleet it is not a bad ideal to throw a hammy in a wych squad if you want them to stay in combat forever.
I would say wracks are just as good as tying up a unit as wracks are.
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on January 10, 2013, 06:05:17 PM
Crisis: If you want night shields, just drop the Haemonculus. Given that he's got a liquifier gun that should free up enough points for Night Shields on most of your vehicles. Playtest that, see how it works out for you and then go from there. Night Shields should especially help against Guard actually. If you can immobilise their Chimeras you can then laugh and safely sit outside multilaser range. :)
Yeah, I was thinking more of the Haemonculus taking the boot more than the Archon. I also feel that downgrading the Archon will also free up even more points, especially when I drop the soul-trap and the Huskblade and put in a Venom Blade instead. That's approximately 105 points right there to upgrade my skimmers with the Nightshields. I may even downgrade the Incubi Raider into a Venom and take down another Incubi just so that I can have Nightshields on everything.
What is the range of the multilaser anyway? I never really knew how far the range of that is.
Quote from: crisis_vyper on January 11, 2013, 06:00:57 AM
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on January 10, 2013, 06:05:17 PM
Crisis: If you want night shields, just drop the Haemonculus. Given that he's got a liquifier gun that should free up enough points for Night Shields on most of your vehicles. Playtest that, see how it works out for you and then go from there. Night Shields should especially help against Guard actually. If you can immobilise their Chimeras you can then laugh and safely sit outside multilaser range. :)
Yeah, I was thinking more of the Haemonculus taking the boot more than the Archon. I also feel that downgrading the Archon will also free up even more points, especially when I drop the soul-trap and the Huskblade and put in a Venom Blade instead. That's approximately 105 points right there to upgrade my skimmers with the Nightshields. I may even downgrade the Incubi Raider into a Venom and take down another Incubi just so that I can have Nightshields on everything.
What is the range of the multilaser anyway? I never really knew how far the range of that is.
I think it is 36" off the top of my head let me look. Yup 36". Knew it was 36 or 48. I think a few hammys would be better. You have one melee unit and it is not to hard to get rid off. I typically wuld multi your boats over denying feel no pain personally.
I would say Dark Eldar is one of those few armies I turn my plasma gunners on vehicles instead of troops.
Good call on dropping the Archons gear for a Venomblade. As an awful lot of tough units these days have an invun save that is better than their normal save [as they usually dont have a normal save] the Venomblade is a smart choice, plus I think wounding on 2+ offsets them getting a save even if its 3+. I think in terms of points effectiveness its his best weapon. That and a Shadowfield can bog down very good characters in challenges for ages and often come out on top thanks to weight of wounds caused.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on January 11, 2013, 01:54:42 PM
Good call on dropping the Archons gear for a Venomblade. As an awful lot of tough units these days have an invun save that is better than their normal save [as they usually dont have a normal save] the Venomblade is a smart choice, plus I think wounding on 2+ offsets them getting a save even if its 3+. I think in terms of points effectiveness its his best weapon. That and a Shadowfield can bog down very good characters in challenges for ages and often come out on top thanks to weight of wounds caused.
Not really sure about that. I don't think you want a shadow field archon in prolonged battle. He is good for a few wounds here and there. To many wounds can be dangerous to his health. I can see other upgrade characters going that routr however or scissorhands.
I was thinking with challenges a clone field wouldn't be bad now. You get to negate on averagetwo wounding attacks which is a character with at least 5 attacks dishing out that many wounds on average, unless str 5 or higher. Also with some shardnets like say 3 you can be boss in almost any challenge. Let's say you get charged by KOS with 7 attacks, it would be reduced to 4 attacks with 3 getting through you can negate 2 with 0n possible getting through. Ok bad example unless you had D grenades or if you are charging the model.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on January 11, 2013, 01:54:42 PM
Good call on dropping the Archons gear for a Venomblade. As an awful lot of tough units these days have an invun save that is better than their normal save [as they usually dont have a normal save] the Venomblade is a smart choice, plus I think wounding on 2+ offsets them getting a save even if its 3+. I think in terms of points effectiveness its his best weapon. That and a Shadowfield can bog down very good characters in challenges for ages and often come out on top thanks to weight of wounds caused.
Yeah and I noticed that wounding with the huskblade is something to be desired for at times despite its advantages. The problem I see with it is that I need to 'trigger' the weapon with the soul-trap to make it efficient, and with their low strength it is an uphill struggle. Only issue that I have is that there is a tendency among the players here to buff their HQ with either terminator armour or artificier armour to protect them and the venom blade is not really amazing against them either.
Of course I could take both the venom blade and the huskblade together, but that is just a little too much at times pointwise.
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 11, 2013, 02:36:16 PM
Not really sure about that. I don't think you want a shadow field archon in prolonged battle. He is good for a few wounds here and there. To many wounds can be dangerous to his health. I can see other upgrade characters going that routr however or scissorhands.
I was thinking with challenges a clone field wouldn't be bad now. You get to negate on averagetwo wounding attacks which is a character with at least 5 attacks dishing out that many wounds on average, unless str 5 or higher. Also with some shardnets like say 3 you can be boss in almost any challenge. Let's say you get charged by KOS with 7 attacks, it would be reduced to 4 attacks with 3 getting through you can negate 2 with 0n possible getting through. Ok bad example unless you had D grenades or if you are charging the model.
My experience with CC with the Archon always puts me with an opponent that will be able to instakill me in a second and have a medium to high number of attacks. The clonefield is not reliable in that sense as it does not entirely eliminate all the attacks. It is good against sergeants and stuff, but against other more dedicated assault characters, there is something to be desired. The shadowfield is more reliable in that sense. It is not bad, but the fact still remains that the shadowfield works outside of combat as well. That is the main selling point of the Shadowfield in my opinion.