I've noticed a lot of people are writing 1850 point army lists and I'm curious as to why?
Probably to have a high point game where double FOC can't be used. A new meta to help kill spam lists.
1. Most in my area are playing 1850 due to tournament play
2. 2k allows for some beardy list. You can take 4 hq options, 4 troop options, 2 different allies
In other words if I take a minimum of 4 troops with sisters, I can have guard and greyknights as allies.
Which brings the question. If you are playing necrons and use chaos and grey knight allies. Would you be able to do so since grey knights and chaos can't ally. Even though neither grey knights or chaos is your primary.
Its been 1850 for quite a while, at least in the UK. I think its mostly to do with tournaments as the vast majority are 1850 with a few at 1750. I think 1850 took off at tournaments because thats the points value the european team championships are using.
At first I hated it, I didnt like the idea of being able to get those extra units in your list, not squeezing as much as you can out of 1500 or even 1750 but now I cant seem to make lists for any less. It helps to somewhat limit some armies too, back with GK razorback spam for example, you would have your dreads and razorbacks full and then have to spend your points on some less optimum units were as other armies would still have plenty of units they wanted to squeze in but couldnt at smaller points values.
One problem at the min is that Necrons can simply take 3 barges and 3 wraith units and then as the points inrease they can just add more and more units of 5 warriors in night scythes.
For regular play, 1750-1850 seems to be the standard points size these days. It just seems to fit in with the preferences which many seem to have regarding their army lists, regardless of what tournaments are doing.
Im not sure, before there was a big independant tournament scene in the UK it was just GW's GT[at the time] and Conflicts, they were 1500pts and 1000 points. 95% of the games I used to play/see back then were at those values even amongst players who didnt play tournaments. Now there is an indy scene that play at 1750/1850 thats what I see, again even in circles that never play tournaments.
I think its to do with the fact that people are pretty easy about what points value they play, Im happy to play pretty much any value because I dont go to many tournaments but people preparing for a tournament obviously want to play at the points value the tournament is using. As most people dont mind, they are happy to do that against a tourny gamer and I think that just filters down. So even if you just have 1 tourny player in a gaming group of 10+ people they are probably going to play 1750/1850 because that one player wants to play at that value and everyone else is happy to play any value.
My favourite points value though is 600 with some minor comp, nice 1 hour games, easy to pack away and a lot of fun when a lone guy can change a game but you still have enough models to need a good game plan etc.
Quote from: Irisado on May 20, 2013, 05:17:38 PM
For regular play, 1750-1850 seems to be the standard points size these days. It just seems to fit in with the preferences which many seem to have regarding their army lists, regardless of what tournaments are doing.
Nah. Everyone around here used to play 2k. Since 1850 tournaments have been pushed more during 6 everyone plays 1850 here now.
Quote from: Chicop76 on May 20, 2013, 08:31:18 PM
Quote from: Irisado on May 20, 2013, 05:17:38 PM
For regular play, 1750-1850 seems to be the standard points size these days. It just seems to fit in with the preferences which many seem to have regarding their army lists, regardless of what tournaments are doing.
Nah. Everyone around here used to play 2k. Since 1850 tournaments have been pushed more during 6 everyone plays 1850 here now.
I wonder if that is something GW are pushing on tournament organisers then. Here at least, you have to have GW "sponsorship" to run a tournament.
Quote from: Chicop76 on May 20, 2013, 08:31:18 PM
Nah. Everyone around here used to play 2k. Since 1850 tournaments have been pushed more during 6 everyone plays 1850 here now.
The United States has always tended to favour higher points values, so 2000 under the old system doesn't surprise me at all.
My local shop still runs 1750, mostly, with oddball 1000 pointers mixed in (FOC is 3 Elites, teams, etc).
Quote from: Chicop76 on May 18, 2013, 03:53:47 AM
2. 2k allows for some beardy list. You can take 4 hq options, 4 troop options, 2 different allies
In other words if I take a minimum of 4 troops with sisters, I can have guard and greyknights as allies.
No, you can't, unless previously agreed upon before hand. Just as both Primary Detachments have to be from the same codex, so too, both Allied Detachments. So you can have Guard OR Grey Knights as Allies, not both.
Quote from: Charistoph on May 29, 2013, 08:29:34 PM
Quote from: Chicop76 on May 18, 2013, 03:53:47 AM
2. 2k allows for some beardy list. You can take 4 hq options, 4 troop options, 2 different allies
In other words if I take a minimum of 4 troops with sisters, I can have guard and greyknights as allies.
No, you can't, unless previously agreed upon before hand. Just as both Primary Detachments have to be from the same codex, so too, both Allied Detachments. So you can have Guard OR Grey Knights as Allies, not both.
I must admit, I spent a while doubting that, but I found the passage that mentions multiple allied detachments. It is mentioned that the second detachment must be the same codex as the first, but it's near the end of the paragraph and in brackets. Not exactly well displayed.
Quote from: Railgun Convention on May 29, 2013, 08:51:43 PM
Quote from: Charistoph on May 29, 2013, 08:29:34 PM
Quote from: Chicop76 on May 18, 2013, 03:53:47 AM
2. 2k allows for some beardy list. You can take 4 hq options, 4 troop options, 2 different allies
In other words if I take a minimum of 4 troops with sisters, I can have guard and greyknights as allies.
No, you can't, unless previously agreed upon before hand. Just as both Primary Detachments have to be from the same codex, so too, both Allied Detachments. So you can have Guard OR Grey Knights as Allies, not both.
I must admit, I spent a while doubting that, but I found the passage that mentions multiple allied detachments. It is mentioned that the second detachment must be the same codex as the first, but it's near the end of the paragraph and in brackets. Not exactly well displayed.
Since it's right after the part that says you can take a second Allied Detachment, it's perfectly well displayed, unless one is in the habit of not finishing paragraphs.
Quote from: Charistoph on May 29, 2013, 10:14:17 PM
Quote from: Railgun Convention on May 29, 2013, 08:51:43 PM
Quote from: Charistoph on May 29, 2013, 08:29:34 PM
Quote from: Chicop76 on May 18, 2013, 03:53:47 AM
2. 2k allows for some beardy list. You can take 4 hq options, 4 troop options, 2 different allies
In other words if I take a minimum of 4 troops with sisters, I can have guard and greyknights as allies.
No, you can't, unless previously agreed upon before hand. Just as both Primary Detachments have to be from the same codex, so too, both Allied Detachments. So you can have Guard OR Grey Knights as Allies, not both.
I must admit, I spent a while doubting that, but I found the passage that mentions multiple allied detachments. It is mentioned that the second detachment must be the same codex as the first, but it's near the end of the paragraph and in brackets. Not exactly well displayed.
Since it's right after the part that says you can take a second Allied Detachment, it's perfectly well displayed, unless one is in the habit of not finishing paragraphs.
It's on page 110 in bold print. Meaning if you play 2k you are asking for 4 bloodthirsters for example and two possible allies and two fortifications like skyshield and aegis defense line at the bottom.
I am still waiting to see the necron/ grey knight/ chaos space marine alliance. At 2k it's legal, but I wonder if two ally attatchments like chaos marines and greyknights can even ally together even though Necrons is the primary.
Quote from: Chicop76 on May 30, 2013, 02:34:35 AM
Quote from: Charistoph on May 29, 2013, 10:14:17 PM
Quote from: Railgun Convention on May 29, 2013, 08:51:43 PM
Quote from: Charistoph on May 29, 2013, 08:29:34 PM
Quote from: Chicop76 on May 18, 2013, 03:53:47 AM
2. 2k allows for some beardy list. You can take 4 hq options, 4 troop options, 2 different allies
In other words if I take a minimum of 4 troops with sisters, I can have guard and greyknights as allies.
No, you can't, unless previously agreed upon before hand. Just as both Primary Detachments have to be from the same codex, so too, both Allied Detachments. So you can have Guard OR Grey Knights as Allies, not both.
I must admit, I spent a while doubting that, but I found the passage that mentions multiple allied detachments. It is mentioned that the second detachment must be the same codex as the first, but it's near the end of the paragraph and in brackets. Not exactly well displayed.
Since it's right after the part that says you can take a second Allied Detachment, it's perfectly well displayed, unless one is in the habit of not finishing paragraphs.
It's on page 110 in bold print. Meaning if you play 2k you are asking for 4 bloodthirsters for example and two possible allies and two fortifications like skyshield and aegis defense line at the bottom.
I am still waiting to see the necron/ grey knight/ chaos space marine alliance. At 2k it's legal, but I wonder if two ally attatchments like chaos marines and greyknights can even ally together even though Necrons is the primary.
...Nope. No it isn't. The only bits in bold print are "You may take an additional primary detachment" and "Your Warlord may be from either primary detachment". Just before the last sentence of the paragraph, in brackets, it states that the second allied detachment you take must be from the same codex as the first. So no, it's not legal.
Quote from: Railgun Convention on May 30, 2013, 06:50:01 AM
Quote from: Chicop76 on May 30, 2013, 02:34:35 AM
Quote from: Charistoph on May 29, 2013, 10:14:17 PM
Quote from: Railgun Convention on May 29, 2013, 08:51:43 PM
Quote from: Charistoph on May 29, 2013, 08:29:34 PM
Quote from: Chicop76 on May 18, 2013, 03:53:47 AM
2. 2k allows for some beardy list. You can take 4 hq options, 4 troop options, 2 different allies
In other words if I take a minimum of 4 troops with sisters, I can have guard and greyknights as allies.
No, you can't, unless previously agreed upon before hand. Just as both Primary Detachments have to be from the same codex, so too, both Allied Detachments. So you can have Guard OR Grey Knights as Allies, not both.
I must admit, I spent a while doubting that, but I found the passage that mentions multiple allied detachments. It is mentioned that the second detachment must be the same codex as the first, but it's near the end of the paragraph and in brackets. Not exactly well displayed.
Since it's right after the part that says you can take a second Allied Detachment, it's perfectly well displayed, unless one is in the habit of not finishing paragraphs.
It's on page 110 in bold print. Meaning if you play 2k you are asking for 4 bloodthirsters for example and two possible allies and two fortifications like skyshield and aegis defense line at the bottom.
I am still waiting to see the necron/ grey knight/ chaos space marine alliance. At 2k it's legal, but I wonder if two ally attatchments like chaos marines and greyknights can even ally together even though Necrons is the primary.
...Nope. No it isn't. The only bits in bold print are "You may take an additional primary detachment" and "Your Warlord may be from either primary detachment". Just before the last sentence of the paragraph, in brackets, it states that the second allied detachment you take must be from the same codex as the first. So no, it's not legal.
You ned to be more specific. It seems like you are saying everything is illegal.
So 4 bloodthirsters is still legal. Just you can only ally once, but you can take double the ally. Like 2 chaos lords with 2 plague marines and 2 sonic marines as long as you have the proper icons on your lords.
Basically, if I were taking a 2000pt Daemon army I could have four Bloodthirsters, two Aegis Defence Lines and two Allied Detachments however both Allied Detachments would have to come from the same codex eg. two Chaos Space Marine detachments, not one CSM and one Ork.
Australia has been running mainly 1850pts for tournies for about 3 years now. Personally I find it to be an annoying number- 1750 seems a good number for building the Marine lists I'm used to, the extra 100pts either ends up buying something useless, or you have to go back and start making wholesale changes and therefore your strategies and tactics may need changing as well. Maybe that's just me, but I remember 1750 list building in 5th to be easier...
There's been a bit of discussion for a while about going to 2k but I reckon it takes long enough to play a game as it is...
Quote from: Chicop76 on May 30, 2013, 11:51:37 AM
So 4 bloodthirsters is still legal. Just you can only ally once, but you can take double the ally. Like 2 chaos lords with 2 plague marines and 2 sonic marines as long as you have the proper icons on your lords.
You would still need 2 Ally Troops with that list. FOC movement for 6th Edition codices are only available for the Primary Detachment. The Lords cannot move Cult Marines like the Plague or Noise Marines if they are an Allied HQ.
So, it would read more like, "4 Bloodthirsters, 4 squads of Bloodletters, 2 Chaos Lords and 2 Cultist Squads."
Quote from: Charistoph on May 31, 2013, 07:32:38 PM
Quote from: Chicop76 on May 30, 2013, 11:51:37 AM
So 4 bloodthirsters is still legal. Just you can only ally once, but you can take double the ally. Like 2 chaos lords with 2 plague marines and 2 sonic marines as long as you have the proper icons on your lords.
You would still need 2 Ally Troops with that list. FOC movement for 6th Edition codices are only available for the Primary Detachment. The Lords cannot move Cult Marines like the Plague or Noise Marines if they are an Allied HQ.
So, it would read more like, "4 Bloodthirsters, 4 squads of Bloodletters, 2 Chaos Lords and 2 Cultist Squads."
Noo. I was correct. If you take 4 nurgling squads which comes out to being 150 points and 1 k points for cheap thirsters it will leave you 8oo points for a few plague marines and sonic marines with 2 lords. I did it on army builder already just to see.
For real abuse you can possibly take 4 thirsters with 6 cheap ground princes with 4 nurgling squads. You will might lose in some secenrios due to no scoring, but wth 10 MCs i with 4 that fly I think against most armies you would do fine. However one thrister is bad enough, 3 more would be hard to deal with.
Quote from: Chicop76 on May 31, 2013, 08:24:17 PM
Quote from: Charistoph on May 31, 2013, 07:32:38 PM
Quote from: Chicop76 on May 30, 2013, 11:51:37 AM
So 4 bloodthirsters is still legal. Just you can only ally once, but you can take double the ally. Like 2 chaos lords with 2 plague marines and 2 sonic marines as long as you have the proper icons on your lords.
You would still need 2 Ally Troops with that list. FOC movement for 6th Edition codices are only available for the Primary Detachment. The Lords cannot move Cult Marines like the Plague or Noise Marines if they are an Allied HQ.
So, it would read more like, "4 Bloodthirsters, 4 squads of Bloodletters, 2 Chaos Lords and 2 Cultist Squads."
Noo. I was correct. If you take 4 nurgling squads which comes out to being 150 points and 1 k points for cheap thirsters it will leave you 8oo points for a few plague marines and sonic marines with 2 lords. I did it on army builder already just to see.
For real abuse you can possibly take 4 thirsters with 6 cheap ground princes with 4 nurgling squads. You will might lose in some secenrios due to no scoring, but wth 10 MCs i with 4 that fly I think against most armies you would do fine. However one thrister is bad enough, 3 more would be hard to deal with.
He's saying that the Plague/Noise Marines wouldn't count as troops because only Lords in the Primary Detachment (not allied detachment) could move them from Elites to Troops.
I would dearly love to have an army containing four Bloodthirsters, one is great but in my last game he got eaten by Tau shooting before he made it into combat (admittedly it was a huge amount of shooting but if I'd had a second they would have been unstoppable).
Is that true for all FOC movement? Big Mek's and Deff Dreads for example?
-Kur'os
The CSM book specifies that the character must be in the primary detachment, the Ork codex was written before detachments existed so unless the FAQ/Errata has changed it then you should be able to take an allied detachment with a Big Mek and a Troops Deff Dread.
EDIT: I've just taken a quick look at the Ork Errata and I didn't notice anything written there.
Quote from: Cammerz on June 10, 2013, 05:29:24 PM
The CSM book specifies that the character must be in the primary detachment...
Oh, that explains why I had never heard of that. I don't play CSM, and my friends who do rarely take allies.
Good to know that my silly 2 model ally force is good to go.
-Kur'os