Hey guys
Just thought I'd open up a discussion about opinions on Games Workshops new strategy for releasing things.
Don't get me wrong, I love that there is loads of new stuff coming out and it is bringing whole facets of the 40k world to light for all levels of hobbyist, but I can't help but feel like they are clutching at straws a bit.
Having read reviews of the new Legion of the Damned Codex, it sounds like they are making whole detachments and dataslates out of things which simply should not be taken outside of the standard codex.
I can understand some of them, like the LotD and Inq. ones, but so many of the more recent releases are void of purpose and simply there as an opportunity to grab money.
Not to mention, they are ruling out all of the hobbyists who don't have access to an iPad or Kindle etc...
What are your thoughts?
I don't agree, because you cited Inquistion and Legion of the Damned, yet say they're fine but other supplements are straw-clutching....what other, recent supplements?
You don't need an iPad or Kindle to read an EBook, either, and most of this stuff goes Hardback within a couple of months.
LotD codex seems unnecessary, they worked perfectly well as an Elites slot for the SM, whilst I can understand the background behind the split (in that they could aid the other forces too), it makes very little difference and they may as well have stayed in the SM Codex only.
Knights are another... They're brilliant models, but its just unnecessary again. Knights belong in Epic and Apocalypse games, not standard 40k, even with escalation rules.
Do they come out in hardbook? I'm yet to see anything rules wise that has been released by BL to come out in Hard back.
Whilst this post is partly a rant, I have been trying my hardest to keep up with what has been happening in GW circles, but there is just so much stuff out there now, its just daft crazy to know what's what.
I cant comment on the rules since i just paint (or try to..) and ignore them nowadays :P
But some of the new minis are nice. Knights were a big step in the right direction for me!
IIRC, there have also been Eldar Craftworld Iyandan, and Farsight Enclave supplements, which from my pov have all but fallen off the map in terms of discussion material.
What they should really do is bring back Chapter Approved.
(for those that don't know) chapter Approved was an annual book that contained new rules, experimental rules, codex revisions, additional units, Q&As, and even advice on how to hobby. Pretty Much White Dwarf summed up for the year.
I'm looking at the 2004 edition, and I could easily use the provided Chapter Tactics to field LotD using the normal SMurf dex :P It would be very OP, but I could do it with opponent consent.
Looking more at recent releases, I can only think they going for the "Look at the new shiny" method of generating sales, rather than playing the longer game of creating genuine product that people will want to come back to. All of us Old Guard are here becuase we loved the game and models (and in hindsight, prices) of the older editions and years. GW has lost this, and only wnats more money through less effort.
This my two cents :P
QuoteLotD codex seems unnecessary, they worked perfectly well as an Elites slot for the SM
The idea is that you can have Sisters of Battle or whatever, with LotD suddenly appearing to help them fight. Not Sisters of Battle fighting, then suddenly the LotD appear with some Ultramarines tagging along.
QuoteDo they come out in hardbook? I'm yet to see anything rules wise that has been released by BL to come out in Hard back.
I'm currently holding a Farsight Enclaves book in my hand, so yes. They come out 2-3 months after the E-Book's release, in order to appease Apple. Also it's GW Digital that makes the Ebook supplements.
QuoteFarsight Enclave supplements, which from my pov have all but fallen off the map in terms of discussion material.
You must not play Tau much, Farsight Enclaves is golden and used a tonne for Tau lists.
QuoteKnights are another... They're brilliant models, but its just unnecessary again. Knights belong in Epic and Apocalypse games, not standard 40k, even with escalation rules.
I'm sorry, but after the incessant whining of the internet I'm just going to say this:
What do you want GW to release? Seriously, what the hell is there they can do to please you? They release kits of much loved minis from their early days, recast in some pretty sexy detail, fully posable from the waist up, with rules that lets them slot into the game if you want them to.
What else can they do, Chris? Give it to you for free? Give them a D Blast weapon? Make it out of chocolate?
How about this, if you don't like it, don't buy it. There's clearly other people out there who are buying and loving these, and 90% of them are hobbyists. It's clearly not designed for beginners, as it takes experienced modellors hours to assembled. It's clearly not a rules cash-grab, because they're actually fairly balanced for their high points cost.
It's quite clearly designed for nostalgic oldies and people who love modelling to have fun with, and hell, if you wanna you can play it on the table. What's wrong with that?
Sorry for this rant, but I've had it up to my eyeballs with the constant deluge of whining this fandom puts out. Christ, I used to be a brony, and even they weren't so entitled...
It may be used for a lot of Tau lists, but I honestly don't see that here.
Quote from: CoffeeGrunt on March 05, 2014, 09:55:27 PM
QuoteKnights are another... They're brilliant models, but its just unnecessary again. Knights belong in Epic and Apocalypse games, not standard 40k, even with escalation rules.
Spoiler
I'm sorry, but after the incessant whining of the internet I'm just going to say this:
What do you want GW to release? Seriously, what the hell is there they can do to please you? They release kits of much loved minis from their early days, recast in some pretty sexy detail, fully posable from the waist up, with rules that lets them slot into the game if you want them to.
What else can they do, Chris? Give it to you for free? Give them a D Blast weapon? Make it out of chocolate?
How about this, if you don't like it, don't buy it. There's clearly other people out there who are buying and loving these, and 90% of them are hobbyists. It's clearly not designed for beginners, as it takes experienced modellors hours to assembled. It's clearly not a rules cash-grab, because they're actually fairly balanced for their high points cost.
It's quite clearly designed for nostalgic oldies and people who love modelling to have fun with, and hell, if you wanna you can play it on the table. What's wrong with that?
Sorry for this rant, but I've had it up to my eyeballs with the constant deluge of whining this fandom puts out. Christ, I used to be a brony, and even they weren't so entitled...
The only response I could think of on the spot would be why couldn't they re-build "Adeptus Titanicus" first as an idependant to drum up interest, and build up to releasing the model?
They could then later release more similar kits for other races that could be directly from the re-booted AT, making it feel more like a large range, rather than just a set of options for army building with mediocre to OP rules.
I don't feel any build up to these releases, and rumours mostly fill me with dread these days, unless its a non-Imperium race in which case I'm more trying to avoid disappointment about what the Non-imp races get. Case and point would be Grav-weapons being a SMurf exclusive weapon, rather than something Eldar or Necrons could have had. Eldar got their 6th Ed Codex first (iirc), yet didn't get a weapon they no doubt were playtested against.
Back to the Knight, I've yet to look at the kit from the standpoint of someone only looking at it for conversion parts, or to create something completely new, and my opinion may change if I do look at it that way.
Quote from: CoffeeGrunt on March 05, 2014, 09:55:27 PM
I'm sorry, but after the incessant whining of the internet I'm just going to say this:
What do you want GW to release? Seriously, what the hell is there they can do to please you? They release kits of much loved minis from their early days, recast in some pretty sexy detail, fully posable from the waist up, with rules that lets them slot into the game if you want them to.
What else can they do, Chris? Give it to you for free? Give them a D Blast weapon? Make it out of chocolate?
How about this, if you don't like it, don't buy it. There's clearly other people out there who are buying and loving these, and 90% of them are hobbyists. It's clearly not designed for beginners, as it takes experienced modellors hours to assembled. It's clearly not a rules cash-grab, because they're actually fairly balanced for their high points cost.
It's quite clearly designed for nostalgic oldies and people who love modelling to have fun with, and hell, if you wanna you can play it on the table. What's wrong with that?
Sorry for this rant, but I've had it up to my eyeballs with the constant deluge of whining this fandom puts out. Christ, I used to be a brony, and even they weren't so entitled...
This. GW are doing everything that everyone wanted 5 years ago. Supplemental codices for all the little ofshoots that won't get full codexes? Awesome. Huge models that feel epic? That's pretty cool. A constant stream of new releases instead of getting maybe 5 releases a year? That's fantastic. No one plays Armageddon, and don't blame gw for that. They stopped selling because no one was playing it, not the other way around. Now there's the chance to have fun old models back and to use them in actual games? Sign me up. I love playing in city terrain and looking at my havocs standing in buildings waiting for Riptides or the like to walk by so they can shoot the living hell out of them, or lords with powerfists fighting gigantic monstrosities. The game isn't devolving, it's just becoming more and more cinematic and less flat and boring like chess or the 'balanced because everything is the same' 3rd edition.
And on the note of chapter approved: it was ok, but even with that, we got what... a couple new units and 2-3 army lists per year? The new supplements have as much as a year's worth of chapter approved and we get half a dozen a year at this rate. I had quit 40k for nearly 5 years to only focus on fantasy, but the last couple years have started making me really love the new models, new rules, and new system of release.
QuoteIt may be used for a lot of Tau lists, but I honestly don't see that here.
A lot of the players here don't seem to play Tau. I haven't seen any Army Lists here aside from my own, IIRC. However, on ATT, Farsight Enclaves is very popular. Why wouldn't it be?
QuoteThe only response I could think of on the spot would be why couldn't they re-build "Adeptus Titanicus" first as an idependant to drum up interest, and build up to releasing the model?
Knights aren't Mechanicum in the fluff, they're a separate entity. However, with Forge World releasing new Mechanicum units quite rapidly, we may very well see a Mechanicus faction emerge from it.
Also Grav Guns only beat Plasma Guns once you get to T6 Sv 2+, otherwise they're just the same or worse, aside from Gets Hot. It also does't make sense for Eldar to get Grav Guns, because their standard weaponry almost all ignores armour on a 6 to Wound, they don't need Grav. Necrons likewise have more than enough special weaponry, hence why they're a pretty strong if slightly limited Codex a few years after their release.
Quote from: CoffeeGrunt on March 05, 2014, 11:57:55 PM
It also does't make sense for Eldar to get Grav Guns, because their standard weaponry almost all ignores armour on a 6 to Wound, they don't need Grav.
Wait, what?! When did Eldar get Guass weaponry? I should really look up the 6th edition dex, becuase I have completely missed this update!
All Eldar Shiruken weapons, from pistols to cannons, Autowound and become AP2 on a roll to wound of a 6.
20 Guardians put out 40 shots at BS4 and can easily take down a Wraithknight or Riptide.
As for the Farsight dex, it's cool. It's mostly some cool fluff that I like and rules for him and the 7 Samurai, which are also pretty cool. You can do some good things with it.
I'm gunna level with you Narric, if you're not aware of the biggest, most talked about change to Eldar's basic Infantry weapon, then I don't think you can really talk about the state of the game right now, as it shows you're out of the loop a bit...
Quote from: CoffeeGrunt on March 06, 2014, 07:23:17 AM
I'm gunna level with you Narric, if you're not aware of the biggest, most talked about change to Eldar's basic Infantry weapon, then I don't think you can really talk about the state of the game right now, as it shows you're out of the loop a bit...
I'm not gonna deny that after this evidence. Clearly I've stepped back to far from GW and its releases...
The Gauss special rule is that the weapon also Glances vehicles on a 6, regardless of the AV. For a Bolter-esque weapon carried by basic Troops, that's hella nasty.
Especially given the number of Psykers Eldar can make use of to drop twinlinked and re-roll to wound on them. Oh, and they can Move, Run and then shoot. Or shoot then run depending on your preferance.
And their Transport can convert Penetrations to Glances on a 2+. Lots of nasty tricks in that Codex.
Don't get me get me started on the Waveserpent. I consider it to be one of the most broken things in all of 40k. Mainly because of that damn shield gun that you can make TL for minimal points.
Firing the Shield is stupid, and shouldn't really be a feature.
I was talking to my friend who's started Eldar, and we decided that turning Penetrations to Glances on a 2+ isn't so bad. It's a pretty expensive Transport carrying very fragile units. If it blew up it'd tear the squad inside apart, so it makes sense for it to be durable enough to carry them. It's easy enough to Glance AV12 to death anyway.
I would agree but given its weapons, it is more a tank that can carry troops than an armed transport. It will always have a Jink save as well on top of the almost impossible to glace thing. For what it can do, it is pretty cheap.
The Shield Gun is a bit of a strange addition. The Range and Str make no sense as a wave becomes weaker the further it gets from the source. Pinning and Ignores cover make sense however, as the enemy would be blown of their feet (or at least could). It wouldn't be so bad in my opinion is it was only 12" and Str 4, is it would essentially be a Defensive weapon, allowing the Wave Serpent a chance to relocate to safety.
Looking at the Wargear, I'm now surprised at how many weapons have the "Roll 6, the target takes a wound" special rule. Just going by Distort and Bladestorm I might as well just load up with Guardians with Shurikan Cannons, Warlocks, Vypers, and Support Batterys, just to spam the shit out of Distort and Bladestorm.
Pretty much. Max out your troops with Guardians and Guardian Jetbikes and out manuver anything, take a few Wave Serpents if you need to and then a few big guns in cover.
Distort's nastier. Instant Death on a 6 with an AP2 Flamer is just horrible, and on a durable platform to boot!
There are some worryingly unsubstantiated claims being put forward in this thread, but first let me answer this:
Quote from: CoffeeGrunt on March 05, 2014, 09:55:27 PM
What do you want GW to release? Seriously, what the hell is there they can do to please you? They release kits of much loved minis from their early days, recast in some pretty sexy detail, fully posable from the waist up, with rules that lets them slot into the game if you want them to.
I would like them to stop changing the rules all the time, to stop introducing units that are too big for the game, and instead to actually promote large vehicles in units in a game where they will work properly because the scale will be suitable, in other words, Epic. All these super heavies, knights, and titans do not fit in regular games of 40K, and nor do flyers. They're all out of scale, and their rules cannot reflect their true abilities as a result.
Now on to my concerns about some of the claims:
QuoteHow about this, if you don't like it, don't buy it. There's clearly other people out there who are buying and loving these, and 90% of them are hobbyists.
How do you know ninety percent of them are hobbyists? Have you asked everyone who has bought one? Has someone done a statistical analysis from which you can draw that conclusion? If they have, could you please provide a link, because I haven't come across such a source, and I'm curious.
QuoteIt's quite clearly designed for nostalgic oldies and people who love modelling to have fun with, and hell, if you wanna you can play it on the table. What's wrong with that?
Is it? I've seen new and experienced gamers wanting to buy these in discussion across various internet forums, so again, what do you base this assumption on?
What's wrong with it is nothing at all. However, there's also nothing wrong with saying that these large units are a bad idea for 40K. Different opinions and all that :). I don't see how trying to frame the discussion in terms of 'right' or 'wrong' is helpful to anyone.
Quote from: Deraj on March 05, 2014, 10:57:40 PM
This. GW are doing everything that everyone wanted 5 years ago.
That
everyone wanted? Are you sure about that? Have you asked
everyone who plays the game what they wanted? If so, again, I'd love to see a source whereby such a wide range of responses in favour of GW's current policy has been given to support the assumption that everyone wants Imperial Knights, super heavies, and lots of supplements.
QuoteNo one plays Armageddon, and don't blame gw for that. They stopped selling because no one was playing it, not the other way around.
Before being turned into Epic 40K. Epic was GW's third core game. The big mistake they made was to change it to Epic 40K without enough explanation, good quality marketing, or justification as to why this was necessary. That was the major, albeit not sole, factor in the demise of Epic. On that basis, it's actually possible to apportion blame to GW. The current iteration of Epic is still played, and by a reasonably significant number of people too, so it's untrue to claim that nobody plays it.
QuoteThe game isn't devolving, it's just becoming more and more cinematic and less flat and boring like chess or the 'balanced because everything is the same' 3rd edition.
Third edition wasn't balanced in any shape or form. I'm sure that some here will remember the Blood Angels and Rhino rush to name but two problems we had back then.
I don't see how sixth edition is any more cinematic than previous editions. Whether something is cinematic is all down to the imagination and perception of individual players. You could have cinematic games of Rogue Trader just using infantry. I have fond memories of my first ever game when I was nine or ten of my Orks trying to take the farm from my dad's Space Marines in the original Battle for the Farm scenario. That was cinematic to me, so I really don't understand your point at all I'm afraid.
Irasado, your post basically boils down to, "not everyone wants this, so I'm gonig to argue against it."
The options are now there for those who want it. The beautiful, fantastic, amazing thing about options is that no-one is forcing you to take them. Don't like? Don't do.
QuoteAll these super heavies, knights, and titans do not fit in regular games of 40K, and nor do flyers.
Superheavies don't, that's why you play Escalation if you want them. Also, Fliers aren't even that bad.
Quote from: CoffeeGrunt on March 07, 2014, 01:55:46 PM
Irasado, your post basically boils down to, "not everyone wants this, so I'm gonig to argue against it."
I'm arguing against it, because I disagree with it. As part of that disagreement, I challenged a series of assumptions that have been made in this thread, and you didn't address those points which I made.
QuoteThe options are now there for those who want it. The beautiful, fantastic, amazing thing about options is that no-one is forcing you to take them. Don't like? Don't do.
I don't feel compelled into using units which I don't want to, on that issue we're in agreement; however, those of us who don't think that these units fit into what 40K is supposed to be can give that opinion. There's nothing wrong with holding a different view.
GW does some things I like and it does some things that I don't like. I was positive about sixth edition initially, but the more that they add to it, the less keen I am on the direction in which they're taking 40K.
QuoteSuperheavies don't, that's why you play Escalation if you want them. Also, Fliers aren't even that bad.
Escalation is still the wrong scale for superheavies. The board area isn't large enough for such large vehicles. The rules for flyers are extremely clunky, because they're designed for a playing area that's too small for them. I think that you may have assumed that I was referring to power level, I wasn't, and I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. The problem for me is size and scale.
Don't play them, then.
That doesn't answer the points I've put to you at all. I'm not discussing whether they should or shouldn't be used. I'm talking about whether they actually are a good fit for the game at this scale. I'm also still waiting for an answer to the questions I asked you earlier.
It would be great to have a discussion about this, but if you don't want one, just say so :).
I'm afraid that I must agree with Irisado, CoffeeGrunt. She has given plenty of valid arguments and you are simple passing them off with a literal "Don't like? Don't do" response. If you feel you have made your point and do not wish to go further with the discussion then do say so, but don't just respond with "Don't play them, then." when someone says they don't like a unit or codex.
Note that I'm also happy to be proved wrong. If someone has a good argument as to why I've got the wrong end of the stick, so to speak, then I'm more than willing to listen to it. I'm not someone who rants against GW, as I said earlier, I like some things that they've done, and dislike others, I'm just very unconvinced by the growing tide of old Epic stuff being converted to 40K, but maybe that's just because I play Epic.
The reason I'm not replying is that I'm tired of arguing this over the internet. Blame Bell of Lost Souls, it's incessant over there.
Yes okay, I personally have not played Superheavies, and have no plans to. This is mostly because of Tau's pretty mediocre selection, and partly because they don't seem worth it for the points. If someone else were to offer a game with Superheavies in their army, I'd plan, but with a few conditions on what type of weapons they field, etc, etc.
As far as, "do they fit on the table," I dunno. Nids can choke a table pretty easy nowadays, and we were planning an event where 4 players take 500pts of units, and another plays 2K of Plague Zombies, before realising that it was impossible to fit in the deployment zone.
I personally don't see the problem with the options, models and rules being there. Hell, one day I might field the Orca Dropship list I talked about for a while, because it'd be a fun, cinematic list that I'd love to play once I got something approximating a UNSC Pelican to proxy the Orca as. Is it bad that I have that option in a standard 40K game? The Orca's a bit laughable for 3000pts, really, even by Codex standards. Hell, the 520pt Tigershark brings the same weapon as a 130pt Barracuda. It's just twin-linked and more durable...
Is the game going down the pan? No, it's better than ever. You just need to have a good group to say, "hey, how about we all talk over this, we look at Forge World, but we agree not to take it too far." That's what we do here, and it's working well.
To be honest, the main reason I didn't argue against your points, was that you presented opinion as fact. There's no point me saying that your personal preference for Epic is wrong, it obviously isn't, but nor is it more right than playing the current 40K as it stands now. It felt very much like a YouTube comments argument, there's no quantifiable science behind "this is fun, this isn't." Hence why I couldn't really make an argument on that basis.
What were my "statistics" based on? My local store, where the Knights flew off the shelves, but everyone's been so busy painting them since. Not slapping them on the table with one arm glued on, painting. On the internet, it seems more people are talking about the technical progress GW have made with it, how articulate it is, and that sounds pretty awesome.
I just don't see why less choice is a valid argument. If you can't stand in front of a buffet table without clearing the thing, that's the fault of the client, not the buffet provider...
Irisado's guide to a happier experience on wargaming internet sites: never read any of the following: blogs, Bell of Lost Souls, or Dakka. Avoid all those sites, and you will feel less angry :).
It's interesting that you mention Tyranids and table size, because what you say is true, and goes all the way back to second edition. I remember playing in the loft at a friend's house on an 8'x4' table, and having problems fitting all the Tyranid models onto the board, so it has always been thus. The difference back then was, however, it was huge units of infantry causing the difficulty, and I don't have a problem with that. Tyranids are supposed to comprise an overwhelming horde of bugs after all, it's when they start adding large creatures like the Trygon, which is more or less the size of a Knight (see a pattern in my argument here ;)?) which is when problems begin.
It's not so much the fact that the models exist that bothers me. If people really like Apocalypse (I don't, but I accept that others find it very enjoyable), then use these large models for that. It's played on a much bigger surface, so space becomes less of an issue, and it's a free for all anyway, so almost anything goes. I have no problem with GW allowing Knights, titans, super heavies, and all sorts of other ridiculous units to be converted into 40K for Apocalypse, and this is why I was never concerned about these large units in previous editions.
Escalation has changed all of that. I'm not for one second suggesting that it's going to be a massive problem, and that we should all hold our hands up in horror and say that GW is terrible. I can't see that many players taking advantage of the Escalation rules to even play it anyway. Certainly most people I know don't even have the cash to spend on these new large kits, let alone actually field them. My concern is, however, that the concept in of itself is taking 40K in an unhealthy direction, an arms race of escalating unit size, and in my view that's not good for the game.
No matter which way you cut it, 40K has always been more of a skirmish game. Yes, it has had less of a skirmish feel to it since the end of second edition, but owing to the scale of the figures, and the detailed nature of the rules, this is essentially what it remains. That sort of game being played on a 6'x4' table is relatively poor at mixing vehicles and infantry as it stands, in terms of writing decent rules, and it only gets worse the larger the vehicles are which are introduced. These are the additional reasons why I'm opposed to these units being added.
As for presenting my opinion as fact, not at all. All my views are based off personal experience of gaming, talking to people, and comparing sets of rules. That's pretty much what you're saying too with reference to your local store. It may well be that these kits and design ideas are popular at your local store, which is great for those who like this concept. All I'm saying is that opinion across the internet seems much more divided, and much more difficult to sum up as being against or in favour. It comes over as more of a fifty-fifty split to me.
Finally, on choice, speaking for myself, I don't want lots of choice. I want good quality rules, which make sense, and are suited to the scale of the game being played. I'm not going to get that with Imperial Knights et al.