Taking on New Tau, what will work?

[The Man They Call Jayne]

The Kau'yon method. I scarificed a Hammerhead in order to make the Dreadnought Pod land where I knew I could EMP it to death next turn. Lure, and trap. Combine it with the Mont'ka. Find the threat, focus everything on that taget untill it is dead. For the best results, lure the target into a kill box and then obliterate it with close range firepower.

[Chicop76]

I can't beat them. those fire warriors are too op. The multiple over watch is a bit of a problem. it's the only thing that makes them scary. Like my poor thirster all of sudden (?) getting lit up by the whole army in the assault phase.

Firstly, corrected spelling mistakes. Please remember that spell check exists for a reason.

Second of all, consider just what a Fire warrior is. His strengths come in the form of a high strength long ranged weapon, respectable armour and Overwatch. His weaknesses are a mediocre ballistic skill, low toughness and the ability to only just fight their way out of a paper bag. The three positive points and the three negative points go hand in hand. It's up to you as the player to force the negative conditions on your opponent, if you let him play to his strengths, then you are obviously going to utilise. His high strength weapon benefits from a boosted ballistic skill. What are you going to do? Sit back and sulk, or go Pathfinder hunting? A S5 gun is all well and good, but it's no use when your opponent is bashing out your brains with a rock, so get up close and personal here and there. Just remember that he has to capture objectives too, and crisis teams can't do all of the work themselves. The covering fire that Tau can put down will be problematic, but do bear in mind that it is only 6", so go cause some panic tests or mortar the cowards as they hide in some ruins. And don't give me "My army is bad at shooting!", I've been playing Orks for 15 years now, and I've learned that every other army out there has got it so much better when it comes to the shooting phase than Ork Boy. Also bear in mind that they can only overwatch once, charge in with some chaff, laugh as they get shot up, then send the harder units in.

I think grey Knights, Imperial Guard, and maybe Daemons can win against Tau in most games. like I was trying to say before the Guard can simply out shoot Tau. grey Knights can at strength 5 AP 5 as well with strength 7 assault cannons. With Daemons pink horrors can actually dish out strength 6 love and out shoot tau as well. Plus not to mention skullcannons can rape tau squads.

You're obviously not getting the Tau mentality. They are not a Japanese flavoured guard army. Whilst shooting is most definitely what they excel at, it is mixed in with a maneuverable element that creates such a diverse contrast to many a guard list that is in the meta game at the moment. 

however I don't think tau can handle multiple attacks at multiple fronts.

And BINGO! We have a winner. The crux of most Tau Vs X games can be boiled down to the Tau player forcing his opponent into attacking piecemeal, preferably where it will hurt the least. His opponents job is to saturate the Tau players thought process with too many targets to actually be capable of tackling the real threats. Imagine it as a game of chess, theres those times where no matter what you do you are going to be losing a piece and have to choose which is more preferable piece to keep. When playing against Tau you have to focus on being the guy that forces the decision, not being the one to make the choice.

I never said that tau wasn't mobile at all. I've been jsj since 3rd edition. Another thing to keep in mind is the devilfish in my opinion is the second best transport in the game. I always say the wave serpent is the best followed by the devilfish. Thanks to 6th edition rules and the new Tau codex, tau has a decent mobility rate when compared to some armies. However they still are not one of the Eldar armies that can have better mobility. However I can't complain about turbo boosting and getting a 3+ cover save.

Although I can argue that guard if it wants to, is really way more maneuverable than Tau. Vendettas, hellhounds, Chimera's, etc.

Anyway like I stated before is Tau is very similar to playing Eldar. When compared to the guard. tau uses a saber, cutless, etc. to fight with. it's an elegant weapon and the main objective is to go for pressure points, tire an opponent, wait potentially before delivering the killing blow. While the guard however will give a bunch of people knives and tell them kill that target. they will try to over whelm their opponent and simply try to kill them. No elegance just fighting.

However I'm not saying tau should be like guard at all. just saying that guard can out shoot Tau rather easily.

Personally I think Guard and grey knights with certain builds can just play and win. the build is what technically wins. however with Tau you have to know what you are doing. Day one to now you have to take down your enemies mobility and use hit and run tactics to the fullest. You're not throwing away your troops as meat shields unlike guard who can lose 50 models and think nothing about it. While if Tau lose 50 models that's a sizeable chunk of your army and it impacts how effective your army is.

Now that flyer's is an issue you have the option to ignore or take out what flyer's that can be a pain. if a vendetta or two is out there you know you need to destroy it or disable the 3 lascannons. if the fly-er isn't really a threat you just ignore it. A punish-er tank with passk can eat your troops alive. You know you have to try to take it out if possible, long shot vs prassk lol.

[InsaneTD]

I'd argue GW are trying to push everyone way from vehicles including Tau. And with the lose of vehicle multi tracker, Tau are slower. Only moving six so we can get a little bit of vehicle fire power that will do, may as will not take them. Which the fireblade encourages.

[Osiris]

I'd argue GW are trying to push everyone way from vehicles including Tau. And with the lose of vehicle multi tracker, Tau are slower. Only moving six so we can get a little bit of vehicle fire power that will do, may as will not take them. Which the fireblade encourages.

Why would they try and push out vehicles? They have been pushing air vehicles on us, and for them to push vehicles away from us would be counter-productive...well; it is GW. So maybe you are right.

I would also like to say that IG may do well against the new Tau because of the sheer volume of shots they can get off, not to mention the amount of units they can field for equal points cost.

[Chicop76]

I'd argue GW are trying to push everyone way from vehicles including Tau. And with the lose of vehicle multi tracker, Tau are slower. Only moving six so we can get a little bit of vehicle fire power that will do, may as will not take them. Which the fireblade encourages.

I don't see it that way. The only way to shoot all your weapons now is to stand still, but smart missiles are twin linked which allows you for 6' movement. You don't get a 3+ cover save, but you still have a 4+ on the move. In a pinch you have 18" movement to get your firewarriors where you need them.

If you desired you can use the devilfish as tank shocking rams with flecehtte discharges. When you do so you will inflict wounds to all models that's in base and when they counter attack you can fire over watch.

I will say you should take a devilfish or two.
1. it protects your troops.
2. allows you to get fire warriors where needed

If you decide to use kroot than it does kinda negate the need for them. however it will make taking objectives much harder and when facing some armies you will wish your troops had protection, at least your Ethereal.

the problem i find with the devilfish is it's movement is much restricted from 5Th and last codex. i found my self only moving them 6" which my troops can easily do the same.

The bright side is that it's still movable terrain which really helps out.

i mean for Dark Angels i can field a Land Raider with a 4+ invulnrable that you get to re roll on the damage table. Why you wouldn't field that.

[InsaneTD]

Only Piranhas can turboboost. Dfish and hammerheads can only move 12" max. Otherwise it wouldn't be an issue.

Look that the rules change and the meta, vehicles did get easier to kill. I find myself asking why until I look at infantry models.Cheaper in points, meaning you need more for an army. Make vehicles less wanted and people buy more infantry to make up the points short fall. I notice games are heading towards 1850 and up from 1500 it used to be.

[Chicop76]

Only Piranhas can turboboost. Dfish and hammerheads can only move 12" max. Otherwise it wouldn't be an issue.

Look that the rules change and the meta, vehicles did get easier to kill. I find myself asking why until I look at infantry models.Cheaper in points, meaning you need more for an army. Make vehicles less wanted and people buy more infantry to make up the points short fall. I notice games are heading towards 1850 and up from 1500 it used to be.

Wrong.

Devilfish can move 12" and 6" in the shooting phase.

Piranna"s move 12" and 18" in the shooting phase.

12 fire warriors cost 22 points more than a devilfish. My devilfish roughly cost the same as 12 fire warriors. The problem with tooo many fir warriors is you start to have terrain issues or have them clunked up on the terrain becoming easy targets. typically 4 squads don't have too much of an issue, but 5 or more squads terrain become a serious issue.

I also wanted to mention that the 6" movement is called flat out and you get a +4 which is a 3+ jink save for Tau.

I re read Marker lights and realize they are much better than I thought.

At first I thought it was per unit. Now I noticed it's all units.

Which means for example if I have a pathfinder team go into over watch and hit twice with marker lights. Than every one shooting at said unit can ignore cover saves, or have +2 to their bs.

This actually changes things. Which I may have to re work my list and add marker drones.

[Carrelio]

I re read Marker lights and realize they are much better than I thought.

At first I thought it was per unit. Now I noticed it's all units.

Which means for example if I have a pathfinder team go into over watch and hit twice with marker lights. Than every one shooting at said unit can ignore cover saves, or have +2 to their bs.

This actually changes things. Which I may have to re work my list and add marker drones.

Afraid not, markerlights are spent by the firing squad, not by the army.  See bottom of page 68:

"Immediately before a unit from Codex: Tau Empire shoots at a target..."
"All models firing at the target as part of this shooting attack..."

Same thing goes for cover apparently, so we're no longer stripping cover permanently, but on a unit per unit basis.

[pepsi]

I just realized this. Our crisis suits are relentless, and they can take up to 3-4 weapons (4 for commander). That is a lot of dakka. Can you imagine an AFP, a cyclic ion blaster, and a burst cannon? 3 shots at str 7, 4 shots at st 5, and a large blast template at BS 5?     

On top of this you can take a self-destruct and get another large blast once the crisis suit dies.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

Honestly, the best use I have found for firewarriors now is Blackout Teams. Get out into cover, and move for the objectives, and simply glance anything you meet with an Armour Value to death. 2 Blackouts took down 2 Landraiders with no effort at all.

It's to the point where I am tempted to abandon Rifles for Carbines just for those 2 Shots at 24.

[Chicop76]

Honestly, the best use I have found for firewarriors now is Blackout Teams. Get out into cover, and move for the objectives, and simply glance anything you meet with an Armour Value to death. 2 Blackouts took down 2 Landraiders with no effort at all.

It's to the point where I am tempted to abandon Rifles for Carbines just for those 2 Shots at 24.

I debated on that myself. I used them in the past to assault squads and it actually worked. Also to flush out units from objectives.

The problem however is with overwatch a d grenades such tactics is really not needed. Also thanks to rapid fire on the move the diffrance between carbines and rifles are 3". Not to mention that rifles on the move reach 36".

In other words I don't see the point of taking a weapon that has less range and double tap a mere 3" more, plus assaulting is negated simply due to over watch and grenades.

Suits can still only fire 2 times. I will re look, but relentless allows you to fire x type of weapon and asault, plus move without restriction while multi can fire an extra weapon. If the riptide had 3 weapon options than it can fire 3 weapons.

That being said I thought about taking two standard weapons and a flamer. The flamer is realy cheap for starters and will give the suits an anti horde option. Also on over watch you don't have to waste maker lights for an auto hitting weapon. It gives you nice options you didn't have before on normal suits. I done it before on bodyguards since last edition you could slap a ton of upgrades on them and take 3 weapons. With multi being free it frees up that choice being viable on normal elite crisis suits. I also thought about taking a 3 man of twin flamer suits for fun.


Oh well I was using Markerlights right. I over looked this shooting attack.

[Pottsey]

I just realized this. Our crisis suits are relentless, and they can take up to 3-4 weapons (4 for commander). That is a lot of dakka. Can you imagine an AFP, a cyclic ion blaster, and a burst cannon? 3 shots at str 7, 4 shots at st 5, and a large blast template at BS 5?     

On top of this you can take a self-destruct and get another large blast once the crisis suit dies.

As far as I can see you cannot do that. You can take 4 weapons but can only fire 2 per turn. Two sets of twin linked Plasma might work or a Plasma with twin linked Plasma.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

Hmm, I honestly hadn't considered 2 sets of TL weapons. But given the BS5, is it really needed?

Now that the Aurora pattern is gone, I am personally at a bit of a loss as to what I want to do with my commander.

XV8-02 and a Neuroweb System Jammer is good. Maybe TL Fusion and Plasma, just to make sure you don't roll a 1 when you need that tank dead. Puretide Engram Chip for Tank Hunter if you have the points spare.

[Chicop76]

Hmm, I honestly hadn't considered 2 sets of TL weapons. But given the BS5, is it really needed?

Now that the Aurora pattern is gone, I am personally at a bit of a loss as to what I want to do with my commander.

XV8-02 and a Neuroweb System Jammer is good. Maybe TL Fusion and Plasma, just to make sure you don't roll a 1 when you need that tank dead. Puretide Engram Chip for Tank Hunter if you have the points spare.

On a normal suit you have room for a twin weapon and a off weapon plus you have the multi. Hmmm. I just realzed you can twin the plasma, missiles, or melta and have the second system firing normally. Also thinking about it more I think twin linked is much cheaper than before, I will have to look.

I think I may do twin fusion and missle pods. Not sure yet. Maybe twin plasma for over watch and more accurate plasma shots.

[KCKitsune]

Hmm, I honestly hadn't considered 2 sets of TL weapons. But given the BS5, is it really needed?

Now that the Aurora pattern is gone, I am personally at a bit of a loss as to what I want to do with my commander.

XV8-02 and a Neuroweb System Jammer is good. Maybe TL Fusion and Plasma, just to make sure you don't roll a 1 when you need that tank dead. Puretide Engram Chip for Tank Hunter if you have the points spare.

I went with Puretide Engram Chip, Multi-Spectrum Sensor, Vectored Retro-Thrusters, and Iridium Armor, and Missile Pod.  I'm going to put them with the Broadsides and every turn I can ignore cover.  Sure I can't shoot, but you know what... I don't need to!