Since it came up in another thread, I thought I'd do some number crunching to discuss the statistical shifts in our engine kill capabilities through the ages.
For this, I am mainly going to focus on Imperial vehicles, but the maths apply across the board.
I'm going to number crunch on damage outcomes based on damage inflicted, ignoring the odds of causing that damage. The reason I'm doing that is that, for shooting at least, it really hasn't changed much; Str 5 has had a 1/6 chance of glancing a Rhino since 3rd, and so we'll skip straight to what counts; the Glancing and Penetrating Hits!
Disclaimer - a note on damage:
In every Edition, the chance of causing damage to a vehicle (ie: Weapon Destroyed or Immobilised) is the same: 1/6 for each of them (so 1/3 combined of doing some form of damage).
3rd/4th Edition:
3rd is where the damage table we all know and love (to varying degrees) originated from. It's also the one with the fewest modifiers; only Open Topped applied. 4th Edition didn't change this much, but it did add the rule that meant you could 'ping' a vehicle to death by causing weapon destroyed and/or immobilised results until it couldn't move and had no guns left. For now, however, this is not important. So, let's do some math!
Glancing Hits: 1/6 chance of a kill.
Penetrating Hits: 1/2 chance of a kill.
So, here's our benchmark; a single Glancing should have 16.67% chance of killing a tank (assuming it has landed), whilst a Penetrating Hit is a much higher 50%.
5th Edition:
Oh boy, we've had some changes here! 5th Edition uses a single damage table, albeit with several modifiers. For now, since we're focusing on a normal hit against a normal vehicle, we can ignore that. So, let's have at it!
Glancing Hits: Unable to inflict a 'kill' result.
Penetrating Hits: 1/3 chance of a kill.
As you can see, vehicle durability has gone up quite noticably. Of course, this ignores fundamental changes in how vehicles worked, but in terms of raw damage rolls, vehicles in 5th were less likely to die than before.
6th Edition:
Another radical change; this time, vehicles have been given Wounds, known as 'Hull Points'. 3 Hull Points is the norm, and when a vehicle loses all three Hull Points, it is wrecked. On to the dice!
Glancing Hit: 1 Hull Point lost, no damage roll.
Penetrating Hit: 1 Hull Point lost, 1/6 chance of a kill.
So, it would seem vehicles have gotten even tougher, yes? The odds have been halved since 5th of your Penetrating Hits actually doing anything, and Glancings never roll on the damage table so even ping kills are gone! Except that pinging is alive and well; it's just done differently. Remember that "1 Hull Point lost" bit? Remember how I said most vehicles only have 3 Hull Points? Pinging has now become not only viable, but actively encouraged.
Let me show you what I mean with an example...
FIREWARRIORS VERUS RHINOS!
12 Firewarriors are camping an objective when a Rhino rushes up to them, seeking to contest the point and stop the Tau winning. They have a Markerlight supporting, and they Rapid Fire; 24 shots, giving 18 hits.
These Firewarriors can only inflict a Glancing Hit on their target, and statistically they should get three. Let's assume they do... what are the odds of them actually killing this Rhino?
3rd Edition:
Easiest of the lot. The odds of inflicting one or more wrecked results with those three glancing hits is 42.1% (not 50%. I know why you might think it is, but it isn't.).
4th Edition:
More complex, as we have to allow for 'pinging', but we can do that... it just requires every dice to come up as immobilised or weapon destroyed, and then add that to the odds of blowing the Rhino up 'properly'. That gives us a total of 45.8%, an improvement on last edition.
5th Edition:
A paltry 3.7% chance of a kill here; the only way they can do it is to ping it. That's a nasty limitation, and the odds are not in the Tau's favour.
6th Edition:
100%. Those three hits each took a Hull Point off, and the Rhino is wrecked.
Now you might say this example is unfair. After all, if they only cause two Glancing Hits then the vehicle is fine! That is true, but by the same token it is entirely possible the unit could cause more than three, in which case the vehicle is still just as dead, yet in every other Edition there was a chance that it would survive.
Furthermore, 'pinging' kills are rarely done all at once. Vehicles tend to shed weapons, or be ground to a halt, over the course of a game. In practice, a vehicle that dies due to pinging, if it happens at all, is probably killed slowly over 2-3 turns.
Let's move on to another hypothetical then...
MARCH INTO KRAK MISSILES:
Here, we follow the adventures of Bob the Dreadnought as he marches into a storm of krak missiles. Due to a quirk of statistics, Bob suffers a Penetrating hit every turn. Just one, no more, no less.
What are the odds of Bob being alive at the end of any given turn?
3rd Edition:
Turn 1 50.00%
Turn 2 25.00%
Turn 3 12.50%
Turn 4 6.25%
Turn 5 3.13%
Turn 6 1.56%
Oh dear... really not looking good for old Bob, is it? Realistically, I would not expect him to be around at the end of turn 3, but it is possible he'll live...
4th Edition:
I really don't want to do the math on this one. It's bloody complex, fiddly as hell, and ultimately it'll give me a headache.
So, the simple version is that in 4th, his odds of survival are the same up to turn 4. At turn 4 and beyond, the odds of survival decrease because now he could potentially die to 'pinging'.
5th Edition:
Again, 'pining' has not been factored in here due to the complexity of the math, but here's the odds from the straight up damage rolling:
Turn 1 66.67%
Turn 2 44.44%
Turn 3 29.63%
Turn 4 19.75%
Turn 5 13.17%
Turn 6 8.78%
Turn 7 5.85%
So, it's still long odds he'll see the end of the game, but if you end on Turn 5 the odds are a little under 1 in 7, and lower with the ping, but it's an improvement on before.
6th Edition:
Here we go! Bob's on his fourth walk into Krak Missile alley! Let's see how far he gets!
Turn 1 83.33%
Turn 2 69.44%
Turn 3 0.00%
Ouch! Right off the cliff!
Hull Points have crippled our poor Bob. It means he has no chance at all of living through his third turn, making 6th the worst Edition for walking through suspiciously consistent anti-tank fire!
Now keep in mind we haven't even touched on AP modifiers or Open-Topped, or the benefits / penalties to close combat. Throwing AP1 at Bob in 3rd won't make a difference to his odds. In 4th, it'd make the Penetrating hits more likely. In 5th, his survival odds drop to 3rd Edition levels (remember to add ping). In 6th, he also goes down to 3rd Edition survival odds, but the Turn 3 wall remains as well - 50% odds of surviving turn 1, 25% of surviving turn 2, 0% of surviving turn 3.
So, is it all doom and gloom? Are vehicles now so hopelessly outclassed they have no place on the table? Well, perhaps not.
Let's try and get through that storm of Krak Missiles once more! This time, we're going to bring a Land Raider! We're going to assume for this one that the Land Raider itself doesn't matter - it's passengers do. Our goal is to get them as far down the table as possible! This time, we've been savvy and equipped Extra Armour, so Stunned won't do squat against us! Let's see if we can avenge poor Bob!
Odds of not being killed / immobilised on any given turn:
3rd / 4th Edition:
Turn 1 66.67%
Turn 2 44.44%
Turn 3 29.63%
Turn 4 19.75%
Turn 5 13.17%
Turn 6 8.78%
Pretty solid performance; those Krak Missiles are bouncing off the hull for the most part, but even so our Land Raider could well be brought to a screeching halt by a lucky shot.
5th Edition:
Turn 1 83.33%
Turn 2 69.44%
Turn 3 57.87%
Turn 4 48.23%
Turn 5 40.19%
Turn 6 33.49%
Turn 7 27.91%
Now you see why everyone liked Land Raiders in 5th; the odds of stopping that tank at all with our 1 Glance per turn volley is pretty poor. Given that in just 4 turns the Land Raider could cover 48", odds are it got to where it needed to be.
Can 6th beat it?
6th Edition:
Turn 1 100%
Turn 2 100%
Turn 3 100%
Turn 4 0%
Ah, the wall! Welcome back! But notice what happened before then; our Land Raider was not only shrugging off the hits, but it had zero chance of being damaged! That tank was not only free to move, but it was free to return fire as well! In every other Edition the tank would have at least been shaken, and potentially had guns blown off as well. In 6th, the glancing hits are being completely ignored right up until a critical mass is reached.
WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED?
The numbers speak for themselves; vehicles in 6th Edition are better equipped to handle individual hits, but cumulative hits are fatal. Moreover, I know I didn't touch on combat, but now vehicles are much easier to hit in melee, as enemies never need worse than 3+ to do so. That means you'll be taking more hits than before in combat, which means more chance for your opponent to get those glancing and/or penetrating hits, which means you'll be running out of Hull Points that much faster than you would have under 5th Edition rules, or any other Edition for that matter.
Specific vehicle types, and use of the battlefield itself, may be able to mitigate some of this damage. However, overall I am sorry to say the next four years are looking bleak for tread heads.
They really are. Vehicles are going to be seen less and less unless they fly. My Ork Lootas have glanced to death countless tanks this edition including a lot of Necron and Blood Angel AV13. Last edition thanks to extra armour, being a death company dread or having living metal those glances wouldnt have really been a big deal. Now its equals a lot of dead tanks.
Add those glancing kills to the fact that Meltas are just as good as they were all adds up to a very bad time for tanks.
...cover saves actually got worse for vehicles. Sure you can get a great one with nightfight but with old nightfight you had a good chance of not getting shot at all.
Theres a reason why top players who were using their 14+ AV12 spam Guard, Psyback/Dread spam GK and Barge spam Necrons have dropped those builds.
Have you played or watched many games of 6th yet? you will quickly see how crippling the whole glance death thing is.
At the end of the day most arent open topped anyway so glances couldnt kill them, most tanks now get 5+ cover where as most of the time they got 4+ cover last ed. A lot of your weapons are AP1 or 2 that will be shooting at tanks anyway and those can kill tanks in 1 shot just as well as usual. Then on top of that you kill them in a few glances. Holo Fields, Venerable, who cares, just glance them and they die like everything else.
Add in the fact that transports suck now and you cant contest with tanks or score from in a transport just makes them worse and worse. They also took a hit in terms of not being able overwatch when infantry can.
Flyers are the new tanks. Every army will spam them like Razorbacks/Chimeras etc were in 5th.
I do think AV14 tanks that want to be shooting got a little better though. They are very hard to glance and even when they do you get to shoot back. That is nice, but as always, its nothing a meltagun doesnt fix.
Hrm,
While I do see where you're going with the math, I don't see it having an overall affect on people and what they're going to bring for transports. I'm sorry, but with the changes to cover saves (Both good and bad) transports are still STRONGLY recommended. Foot-slogging lists will have a hard time surviving without superior numbers. It is the main concern I have going into the tournament I am going to be a part of. I have marine foot sloggers and in the past few games I have just been getting CRUSHED! Of course, I've been playing against stacked Necrons.. but it's still tough.
Some things that I find interesting is that Fast Skimmers got a lot better in my mind... armies like Eldar and Dark Eldar got the boost of auto-receiving a 5+ save by simply nudging their vehicles to the side.. which helps them survive. I don't think I'll be seeing guardsmen walking, I'll see them loaded into Valkyries... not to mention, with front armor 11 and 12 are most armies really that more afraid then in 5th? I mean, my bolters still won't be putting any vehicles down if they're coming straight at me.
Another thing to make note of is that glancing hits can no longer slow vehicles down. Glancing used to give you the chance to stop a vehicle from moving and shooting at the very least... at this point, you have to continue hitting that vehicle even if you glance it with another squad. This ups the amount of squads you'll need to fire at a particular vehicle. Things like Land Raiders are super excited IMHO. Meltas are still really the only way to put them down and that means things have to be close, which is fine in their standards because usually there's something packed inside of it that is happy for things to get close.
I will 100% AGREE with you on walkers. The Kan wall is a thing of the 5th past. Most of my ork friends are horribly upset about the new glancing rules and have rolled over on the wall. As for me, I can't get my Dread through turn 2 so I agree with everything you've said about walkers... they just can't cut it with HPs.
Do I agree that vehicles are in trouble in 6th? Oh heck yes, but will it change the game entirely? I doubt it. We'll still see highly mechanized lists dominating IMHO... as sad as I am to say that... I LOVE to see models, and not vehicle models, its why I refuse to bring vehicles, even if I still do get killed all the time. I like to see models. (Although I will admit that I will bring a Deathfish with my Tau allies... they're just too neat!((hypocrite warning!)))
Arguleon-veq said
Quote from: Wargamer link=topic=573.msg11557#msg11557
Quote from: Pottsey on July 26, 2012, 08:22:06 AM
Quote from: Wargamer link=topic=573.msg11557#msg11557
I guess it is warranted that I say this once again.
Quote
If you want to use mathematics and probabilities into the equation, you will have to realize one thing; there are two parallel systems in destroying vehicles which makes the traditional mathematical calculations for warhammer in a loop to begin with which is the hull point system while the other is the penetration chart. Those two systems have their own quirks and combining them can often be very difficult as we are not accustomed to the idea two parallel damage systems on one particular unit type.
Look into the programming currently being attempted for this at the link below.
40k Metrics: 6th Edition Vehicle Mathhammer by Nikephoros (http://nike40k.blogspot.com/2012/07/40k-metrics-6th-edition-vehicle.html)
There's two parts to the question; which system do you want to exploit to destroy vehicles, and what is your target vehicle?
For the light transports, glancing it to death is a much more viable method, and for the heavier stuff, the penetrating would be much better. Since there is no such thing as stun-locking anymore one will have to figure out how they want to neutralize that vehicle fast.
Quote from: Wargamer link=topic=573.msg11557#msg11557
Pottsey, what you seem to have missed is I am talking about Glancing / Penetrating Hits that are inflicted on a vehicle. In other words, if you had a save, you failed it.
Now kindly drop the matter, because you are pissing me off now. Vehicles getting cover saves is not a new idea, nor is vehicles with an Invulnerable Save. Overall, based on real experience in real games, I have not seen a significant increase in saving throws. Yes, some armies are getting Cover Saves where they didn't before, but that's only for Skimmers, who are at their most vulnerable state to date when it comes to being attacked in close combat, which means they won't be getting that precious cover save anyway.
Oh, and because I know you're going to bring it up again... that pre-measure comment? It has no basis in reality. "Just stay 13" away" is not going to save any vehicle ever. Why? Well let's show you!
On 2D6, the average roll, statistically, is 7. This is also the most likely single result to come up. 6" move + 2D6" charge should give 13" total ground covered. I lost a Land Raider to a 9" charge in my last game.
So, to be entirely safe from being charged, our vehicles now need to end their turn 19" away from Infantry, or 25" away from Jump Infantry / Bikes / etc. There are plenty of vehicles who need to be within 24", and possibly a lot less, to fire at full effect. Transport vehicles, especially those carrying assault troops, probably want to be much closer to the enemy than that!
But none of that is the point of this thread. This thread is not about how vehicles are weaker because you can't pop smoke after moving flat out, or how Flyers are a must own, or anything else. It is about how much damage you have to inflict to kill a vehicle, or at least have an acceptable probability of doing so.
That's it. End of. Drop your irrelevant tangent.
I see where Pottsy is coming from, but also know that to do a statistical study such as this with numbers it is difficult to factor in the idea of cover saves. You'd need to factor a percentage of the time a vehicle will be in cover, and then figure from there how many of the hits will be saved by cover.
Your mathammer is done in a vacuum with no cover saves just saying X vehicle is facing Y shooter, how many hits / pens / glances does he get. And in that simple regard I do agree that you have proven that 6th Edition has made vehicles a weaker prospect. Also didn't mention the AP 2 - 1 Factor which has changed things...
I read the blogspot as well, interesting point of view, but I do believe that the short answer is that vehicles are easier to kill in the vacuum, but may not be easier to kill when taking into account all of the other game mechanics. In a way both arguments are correct, although I would still argue that vehicles are slightly worse off in this edition for my simple reasoning that you can finally glance something to death with reliability.
Quote from: Wargamer on July 26, 2012, 12:23:47 PM
Pottsey, what you seem to have missed is I am talking about Glancing / Penetrating Hits that are inflicted on a vehicle. In other words, if you had a save, you failed it.
Now kindly drop the matter, because you are pissing me off now. Vehicles getting cover saves is not a new idea, nor is vehicles with an Invulnerable Save. Overall, based on real experience in real games, I have not seen a significant increase in saving throws. Yes, some armies are getting Cover Saves where they didn't before, but that's only for Skimmers, who are at their most vulnerable state to date when it comes to being attacked in close combat, which means they won't be getting that precious cover save anyway.
Oh, and because I know you're going to bring it up again... that pre-measure comment? It has no basis in reality. "Just stay 13" away" is not going to save any vehicle ever. Why? Well let's show you!
On 2D6, the average roll, statistically, is 7. This is also the most likely single result to come up. 6" move + 2D6" charge should give 13" total ground covered. I lost a Land Raider to a 9" charge in my last game.
So, to be entirely safe from being charged, our vehicles now need to end their turn 19" away from Infantry, or 25" away from Jump Infantry / Bikes / etc. There are plenty of vehicles who need to be within 24", and possibly a lot less, to fire at full effect. Transport vehicles, especially those carrying assault troops, probably want to be much closer to the enemy than that!
But none of that is the point of this thread. This thread is not about how vehicles are weaker because you can't pop smoke after moving flat out, or how Flyers are a must own, or anything else. It is about how much damage you have to inflict to kill a vehicle, or at least have an acceptable probability of doing so.
That's it. End of. Drop your irrelevant tangent.
Well you very clearly you do not care about the realistic acceptable probability of killing a vehicle between 5th and 6th. A lot of what I said is not a tangent and it perfectly valid for dissuasions on tank killing power between 5th and 6th. I noticed you skipped over all my valid none cover save points that disagree with your view, just like the other thread you ignored anything that disagreed with your view. What I said is very relevant as it applies to real games which is what matters. Your math hammer is misleading as it makes it look easier to kill vehicles when in real games it harder.
Well the first few big 6th Ed UK 40K Tournaments are coming up in the next few weeks so I will get my mates that are going to see how tanks are doing overall and what the top table lists are looking like this edition.
Ive seen a lot of top players thinking about Foot Eldar right now which is pretty telling. Just have to see if it works out.
I seriously think we will see a serious reduction in vehicles when you consider that month in month out for the last few years of 5th 90% of competative tournaments were won by Psyback/Dread spam GK and Wraith/Barge spam Necrons.
Just as a quick run down of my personal experiences so far, these are games in which I either watched the whole thing or I was playing.
No Tank Orks vs 5th Ed Style Guard - Orks easy win, tanks were decimated.
No Tank Orks vs Flyers and Foot Guard - Orks easy win although no tanks so doesnt matter.
No Tank Orks vs Flyers and Foot Guard - Orks easy win although no tanks so doesnt matter.
No Tank Orks vs AV13 Spam BA - Orks easy win, tanks got decimated.
No Tank Orks vs Necrons with 3 AV13+1 AV14 - Fairly close but an Ork win, only the Monolith lasting the game [only the Monolith lasting past turn 2].
No Tank Orks vs 5th Ed Style GK with Necron Flyers and Barge - GK win but mainly due to the Flyers and Purifiers, 1 Dread and 1 Razor survived the game from the Vehicles [not including flyers] from 3 and 6 respectively.
Foot Wolves vs 5th Ed Style GK with Necron Flyers - Wolves easy win, no tanks survive the game.
Paladin GK vs 5th Ed Style Mixed Tau - Easy win for GK although the Tau Tanks survived they just werent shot at as there was nothing they could do to take the objectives from the Paladins.
My mates are playing Paladin GK vs 5th Ed GK with Necron Flyers on sat as a warm up for Ribble Rumble which is a big 50+ player tournament that a lot of the top players go to. I will let you know if 5th or 6th ed GK wins out and how those tanks do.
Silly question, but what are you seeing in the "No Tank" Ork lists?
I'm one of the not-too-many Ork players out here, as most of my mates are still IG, SM/GK and Crons.
Best,
-BT
Quote from: BigToof on July 26, 2012, 07:10:52 PM
Silly question, but what are you seeing in the "No Tank" Ork lists?
I'm one of the not-too-many Ork players out here, as most of my mates are still IG, SM/GK and Crons.
Best,
-BT
Not to mention that te IG psyker squads can reduce the morale of the Ork nob squads and the likes and just shoot them down enough to make them run away. Manticores and Demolishers are quite the pain for the Nob Bikers now as the Large Blasts can snipe particular models out.
Me and a guy from our club are running them [he was second in the UK but I think hes dropped to about 10th in the past few weeks].
They are based around;
3x 15 Lootas
Lots of Nob Bikes.
Then he runs 4 10 strong Shoota units and 10 Grots plus an extra Bike Warboss. Runs him with the other Bike Boss and Nob Bikes in 1 big unit.
I run 3 units of 20 Sluggas with Claw Nobs and just the 1 Bike Warboss.
Both lists have at least 8 Nob Bikers.
Battle Psykers arent as big a threat as its easier to rally now and you still have to kill 3 bikers with all the wound shenanigans they can do. A Demolisher Cannon should only ever hit 3 bikes. You should only take a single wound [after saves] and you put that on the Warboss as it doesnt instant kill him.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on July 26, 2012, 07:20:03 PM
Battle Psykers arent as big a threat as its easier to rally now and you still have to kill 3 bikers with all the wound shenanigans they can do. A Demolisher Cannon should only ever hit 3 bikes. You should only take a single wound [after saves] and you put that on the Warboss as it doesnt instant kill him.
All they need to do now is just make the Nob squad to just not touch them. They do not have to make them run off the table, they just need to make them run away. Even if they regrouped, that is one turn of not being able to do any sort of movement on your part. And putting the wound on the warboss would be nice if you managed to make a 'Look out, Sir' to let the warboss take the hit. And depending on the guy's build, you may be able to see like 3 psyker squads backed up by several Demolishers/Manticores to make themselves very effective in throwing lots of high strength templates which will also affect how the other footsloggers work.
Not to say that this is what you will see, but it is possible to see the orks finding a hard time approaching several objectives that are hidden behind that wall of nonsense. It is just a way people may handle the resurgence of the Orkoid problem.
The biggest problem for Nob Bikes right now is Paladins as the force weapons ignore FnP go first and instant kill the Nobs. Plus the Nobs shooting on the way in hardly scratches them, against other force weapon units that shooting will leave a dent but Paladins shrug it off.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on July 26, 2012, 07:43:01 PM
The biggest problem for Nob Bikes right now is Paladins as the force weapons ignore FnP go first and instant kill the Nobs. Plus the Nobs shooting on the way in hardly scratches them, against other force weapon units that shooting will leave a dent but Paladins shrug it off.
True. But will they be in a Stormraven? That is the interesting thing about the current situation right now with the flyers rampaging around the place. Paladins in a Stormraven would interestingly be a very big pain right now.
Y'all are making a great argument for allied Farseers :)
Best,
-BT
Quote from: BigToof on July 26, 2012, 07:59:15 PM
Y'all are making a great argument for allied Farseers :)
Best,
-BT
Um....wrong thread? :P
Quote from: crisis_vyper on July 26, 2012, 09:49:32 PM
Quote from: BigToof on July 26, 2012, 07:59:15 PM
Y'all are making a great argument for allied Farseers :)
Best,
-BT
Um....wrong thread? :P
Fortune(or what ever it is) on a tank to allow re-roll of cover save? Is that even legal?
NO!! Trust me, Paladins in a Stormraven is a HORRIBLE idea... because I'd assume you would just zoom around, and when those Lootas fire a million shots at your Stormraven and blow it up and your Paladins take S10 hits with no saves of any kind allowed.. you'll wish you didn't try and pull that. In my mind, Paladins are best in a Land Raider now since it is somewhat more reliable now-a-days.. especially against Orks.
Re: Allied Farseers
I meant that since your argument vs Nob Bikers was "Bring Da GK Cheez," the best counter would be a Farseer to make all that nonsense that much harder. I know I bring one to even things up JUST in case of such shenanigans.
Best,
-BT
Quote from: BigToof on July 27, 2012, 12:13:42 PM
Re: Allied Farseers
I meant that since your argument vs Nob Bikers was "Bring Da GK Cheez," the best counter would be a Farseer to make all that nonsense that much harder. I know I bring one to even things up JUST in case of such shenanigans.
Best,
-BT
Ah, ok. That makes more sense to me now.
Oddly enough, I felt that Dark Eldar vehicles are now even tougher than the old days. Thanks to the shenanigans of cover, nightfighting and hull points it is much harder to kill a Dark Eldar vehicle as compared to an Imperial one.
So I said I would get back about the game between my two mates and the tournament.
The game between my mates, 5th ed style GK with Necron air support vs 6th ed style Paladin GK [which was rubbish in 5th]. The 5th ed GK won, which would suggest that tanks arent as bad as we have been thinking BUT it won because the Necron Flyers killed the lone scoring Paladins and the Night Scythes were dropping Warriors off on key objectives and won the air battle against two Storm Ravens. The tanks were killed pretty easily with the exception of a Lord in Barge thanks to AV13, 5+ Save and essentially 5 hull points due to the lord.
The guy using the 5th ed style GK [razor/dread spam] then took them to a tournament. The first decent sized one of 6th in the UK. 38 Players total. He tells me that only about 10 armies used tanks at all. The rest had none whatsoever. Which is pretty shocking. Most that did, finished low with the exception of my mate who got 4th and another player who was running 2xManticore, 2xChimeras then Vendettas with Deathwing allies so not exactly tank heavy but it did finish second.
First was Nob Bikers with Dakkajet and Grot support, third was Paladins. Paladins featured a lot around the top as did Loganwing Wolves and people with Deathwing allies.
He was telling me that his tanks did ok, but mainly due to the fact that when they died they usually just died to loss of hull points so he could just hide his 3man aco squads behind them so they could safely hold objectives. His main game winners were the Necron flyers, dropping Warriors off wherever they needed to be thanks to that teleport device.
So pretty inconclusive, a lot of people must also be thinking that tanks are worse with so few bringing them and besides 1 army, no real tank heavy armies did well. But that army had its tanks do fine which shows they can still work when used by a good player, they just arent the force that they were.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on August 07, 2012, 10:43:15 PM
So pretty inconclusive, a lot of people must also be thinking that tanks are worse with so few bringing them and besides 1 army, no real tank heavy armies did well. But that army had its tanks do fine which shows they can still work when used by a good player, they just arent the force that they were.
I think I have said this over and over again for those on the internet and also in real life; Mech is not dead, just toned down. So far the outright fear of vehicles being nerfed perpetuated ar first glance of the rules only served to make everyone cried "Chicken Little" and dump away any sort of vehicle for an infantry meta, which in my opinion is rather foolish as the overgeneralization of vehicles by one initial thought only made their gameplay weaker (unless your army can work with such a mechanic like Orks, IG, Nids or has enough terminator armour to shrug the shots off). Not to say that they are wrong, but neither are they right either.
Thanks to the overgeneralization of the meta, I am finding myself with an unique advantage as sticking with my balanced Mech Dark Eldar only served to play to my advantage. Now that there are more infantry running around, the Venoms and Razorwings now have more targets to fire upon as compared to 5th and the way cover saves are conferred now and Nightfighting only served to make the Dark Eldar vehicles more survivable. I will admit that flyers do trouble me from time to time, but nothing the Razorwings couldn't handle.
The fear of a Necron Air Force or Vendetta Air Force is mitigated by the reserve mechanic in play where you need a presence on the table by the end of the turn to allow the other things to come in from reserve. Thanks to this rule, it is actually much preferable to have a much more balanced approach to gameplay these days. 3 vendettas or 3-4 Necron Flyers are a much more realistic outlook for a flyer heavy army.
Thanks to the reading of the meta, I managed to land myself 3rd place in the Feast of Blades Qualifier rounds in my FLGS (unfortunately I will not be able to attend the Feast of Blades due to university). First place went to a Paladin-style army and second went to an IG blob with lots of heavy weapons and 3 vendettas.
I'm not convinced there needs to be as much of a shift as there has been. The main shift I feel, will be towards more multi-shot mid to high strength weapons. Especially things like ork lootas, or autocannons for the guard instead of missiles. Generally, two shots is now better than one as there is less worry about having to make sure to penetrate, as if you have the quantity of shots, you should get enough glances.
I think Venerable dreadnoughts took a bit of a hit, and extra armour on Av13+ seems a bit of a waste to me, but apart fromt hat rhinos aren't that much worse than they were. Cover saves are going to play a much bigger part now for vehicles, you're not going to get away with parking them in front of anything and praying for bad damage table rolls, although that wasn't done much in 5th either! :P
- Will