So I would always complain in 4th and 5th about how the Tau are supposed to the 40ks shooty army yet the basic troops get the short end of the stick when it comes to rapid fire (move and only shoot 12, or don't move and shoot a godly 30). It was really challenging to get into a good position and shoot stuff without getting charged the next turn and most likely loose at CC. But now that we can shoot a full 30 while moving that's an effective 36" of range and rapid fire is now 15! so that's 21" effectively. That's unreal! pulse with pre-measuring being included you can really destroy your enemy a whole lot quicker. I definitely am taking a few full squads of these guys. Who else likes them in 6th?
At the moment I think Powerhouse is a bit of a stretch. Greatly improved sure, but everyone with a rapid fire weapon can do what we do. Everyone has a 15" RF range. Until 6th comes out we wont see any major change to the way they work.
They are still fragile, blind as a bat, and spook at the sight of their own shadow... which is where the issue has always been. 30 inch S5 AP5 is a beastly weapon for a troop... but as a unit... they are about as tough as IG footslogger, just as weak in the knees (but with no easily accessible way to boost leadership en mass) and just as (in)accurate... but with a much larger price tag, and a much smaller unit size. The result? Probably not the best choice.
I'd say, just like TMTCJ said above, fire warriors have improved, but are not game breakingly good. I might boost my two 6 man squads up to 12 each... but I'm probably not going to be adding any more squads to my army.
Fire Warriors will not become powerhouses until they get a new codex that changes the pulse rifles into salvo weapons.
The one thing that I DO like is that my Warfish is back. Take a multi-tracker and you can move the Warfish 12 inches and fire both the burst cannon and the smart missile system.
I do not think we will be seeing the pulse rifle becoming a salvo weapon. If they had wanted it to be one, they would have updated it in the 6th ed. FAQ and Errata.
Quote from: Carrelio on July 07, 2012, 02:49:42 PM
I do not think we will be seeing the pulse rifle becoming a salvo weapon. If they had wanted it to be one, they would have updated it in the 6th ed. FAQ and Errata.
I don't think they'd do that, either. Aside from a few notable exceptions, they've basically JUST made the 6th edition codices make sense in 6th (Aside from the hydra, which got skyfire...). Major balance changes, like Pulse Rifles getting some sort of Salvo (really? 2/3, maybe? Still seems unlikely to me.) will almost certainly have to wait for a new codex.
If they were actually willing to do the "balance the game through the Errata" method, they probably would have started a long time ago. They would almost certainly have had Target Locks give Split Fire rather than remove them entirely, as well.
Nnope. Fire Warriors are not powerhouses yet. But the Crisis Suits, Stealth Suits and Broadsides are quite the threat now. Plasma, missile pods and Railguns are now perhaps more deadlier than before.
But that saying, these changes are stopgaps for the real 6th ed codex.
Iam really looking forward to my deathrains glancing something to death. Even though i really dont like that rule. I feel it would work better if, on a glancing hit, you lost a HP on a 4+. Automatically losing it to a glace is just too easy.
Now here's a question for all of you...
Do kroot still find a place in our army? The fire warriors really gained some nice buffs, while the kroot stayed about the same (with the exception of the krootox... but he's pretty pricey for a missile pod on a big ape-bird-creature-thing).
In a little more detail...
Both got a mobility boost thanks to how rapid fire weapons work, but fire warriors gained a range boost along with their mobility boost since rapid fire is now 15 inches and they can make use of the full 30 inch shot along with their movement.
Both also gained the snapfire/overwatch ability which is great for units that primarily work best at range. Both get this ability, but kroot hounds don't have guns and fire warriors have a S5 shot instead of S4... which will lead to a few more kills.
Then there's the change to night fight... Which will likely come in to play on at least half the games we play in this edition. Now this doesn't actually directly impact either of these squads... until you take a shas'ui with a BSF and ignore night fight on your fire warriors all together.
Speaking of Shas'ui... the new rule for initiative, means that for the purposes of sweeping advance you take the units fastest initiative. A shas'ui bringing 2 gun drones will bring the whole squad up to I4 for purposes of fleeing a fight, which isn't too bad, and actually gives us a chance to escape, and return to shooting up the enemy in our following turn. Kroot are entirely unchanged in this regard.
Characters are a thing... now this favours the the kroot and their shaper a little bit, because kroot can take a more offensive roll in charging an enemy and challenging say... an enemy HQ... to tie up those 5 power weapon attacks on a single model... but overall, it's not very helpful for anything smaller than a crisis suit where you can tie up power fists with shield drones.
So there you have it... unless I've missed something I think we have to reway the options for the kroot squads.
What do you guys think?
Kroot are still better in forests, they cost a mere 7 points each, and can outflank or infiltrate. Also they can get into combat with their 3 attacks on the charge and WS4. I believe Kroot are a viable addition to any Tau army - providing you use them in Kroot roles rather than Fire Warrior roles ;)
Unfortunately, the Mysterious Terrain hurts them quite a bit. Forests are almost as likely to be dangerous to the unit hiding inside as they are helpful. If the Kroot's Fieldcraft ability gave them some modification to Mysterious Terrain / Forest (like the option to reroll it if they discover the terrain or the option to ignore it if they choose), as I strongly believe it should, then they would be more useful.
Unfortunately, Kroot are back to being a poor assault screen. With enemy overwatch, no armor saves, the appalling lack of assault grenades for the hounds, and assault from the outflank now forbidden, Kroot are useless in assault. They might manage as the first line of a gun line since the sheer volume of bolter-equivalent Overwatch fire for the points and some initiative 5 swings will make assaulting them more dangerous, but kroot are going to be no better than fire warriors as an offensive unit.
I'd like to point out that Rapid Fire range is not 15" for everything, RF range is half of maximum range so Bolters still have 12", as do Lasguns, Pulse Rifles have the extra 3" because the guns are better, and Kroot Guns (the ones on the krootoxes) are an amazing 24" making them much more viable and I want three in my carnivore squad.
Quote from: Cammerz on July 09, 2012, 11:34:08 PM
I'd like to point out that Rapid Fire range is not 15" for everything, RF range is half of maximum range so Bolters still have 12", as do Lasguns, Pulse Rifles have the extra 3" because the guns are better, and Kroot Guns (the ones on the krootoxes) are an amazing 24" making them much more viable and I want three in my carnivore squad.
Hmmm. That does make the Krootox more appealing due to the rapid fire effect.
So does that mean that Kroot may have use as a distractionary fire-base?
The Kroot Gun is afterall equivalent to a missile pod, and having three in a unit means you could glance a few vehicles.
Would you not be better off with a Deathrain team? More mobile, better armour, maybe cheaper? Plus more customisable. Krootox still up a valuble Heavy Support slot that we need to use for our biggest weapons. Although I can report good things on the New Plasma Turret for the Hammer head. Good range, good accuracy, good ROF, good AP. It is a far better choice than the Ioncannon for the same price. Against footslogging MEQ armies, which I think we will see more of, it is a very very desirable weapon.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on July 10, 2012, 08:39:55 AM
Krootox still up a valuble Heavy Support slot that we need to use for our biggest weapons.
I'm not talking about any Forge World models/units, I'm talking about the regular Krootox that can be taken with a Kroot Carnivore squad. You know, THE TROOPS UNIT! And no-where in the codex does it state that taking a Krootox in your KCs takes up a HS slot.
So we effectly get a smidgen of Anti-tank in our Troops, without the need to rely on a secondary unit, the way Fire Warriors would rely on a Seeker Missile carrying vehicle.
I need to re read my codex. Im sure i remember something kroot being a HS choice. I havnt looked at it in over a year. lol
I have the codex opened in front of me.
No mention of Krootox taking a HS slot.
I believe you're referring to the previous Tau Codex, because if memory serves, Krootox did take a HS slot in that edition. Or one of the various Fan-dexs that Second Sphere has played host to :D
Stupid various things that impede my memory *mumblegrumble*
Narric is corect. I have 6 Krotox that's been gathering dust. I can't wait till form a 175 point unit of 3 for six strength 7 shoots. Thinking about it more it really helps to lay down more shooting for your army.
The fact that a Krootox can no-longer be instagibbed by Str 6 will surely see them used more often.
Quote from: Wargamer on July 11, 2012, 01:27:52 PM
The fact that a Krootox can no-longer be instagibbed by Str 6 will surely see them used more often.
Unfortunately, they can, its only in the 3rd edition codex that they were T3(5), in the current 4th edition codex they're just T3. Makes no sense to me but hopefully they'll fix it in the next book.
The original bit of fluff to explain the two toughness values is that the rider (3) took the actual hits and the kroot ox (5) wondered off. They simplifed it in the last codex and removed the bit on that so it was just tpughness 3, representing the same idea. I doubt we'll see a return of the T5 Krootox.
Quote from: Tybalt Defet on July 11, 2012, 03:53:35 PM
The original bit of fluff to explain the two toughness values is that the rider (3) took the actual hits and the kroot ox (5) wondered off. They simplifed it in the last codex and removed the bit on that so it was just tpughness 3, representing the same idea. I doubt we'll see a return of the T5 Krootox.
Still doesn't make sense, a rider on a krootox must have a similar relationship to a marine on a bike (the bike doesn't keep fighting when the rider's dead either). I'd make it at least T4, maybe even T5 (although both would include some form of price increase, maybe back up to 50 like in 3rd).
I managed to play a game with tau under the new rules, oddly enough, against another tau player :P
Damn good game, with a few oddities.
Kroot in Forests, especially Steel/Iron bark Forests, are neigh unmovable bvy enemy range. I had 3 units of 10 Fire warriores, Two Broadsides, and two Sniper Drone teams try to get ride of my Kroot unit of 10, and the Kroot weathered the entire storm without losing a single guy. Opponent had to get four ML hits on the squad, to negate the cover save, before they started causing Kroot casualties. And all the wqhile they just sat there taking pot shots at nearby Fire Warrior teams behinds an Aegis defence line.
Kroot Guns of the Krootox I think would be good at picking off light-armoured vehicles, but agaist anything with a dcent Invul save, or cover save, you'd better find a better target.
Played against Farisght under the new rules. He really needs a 2+ save somewhere, as I took him down with massed Pulse fire.
Watched in delight as my opponent fluffed firing two Seeker Missile from there Sky Ray. They didn't use it again the whole game, save pot-shot MLs.
If memory serves, Burst Cannon/Missile Pod battlesuits were considered a newby choice, but they are effective against light-infantry.
I think for a the points, a Sniper Drone team is definately useful, if only to pool ML hits into a unit.
Now to get back to topic, Fire Warriors.
They're ok, but I'd highly recomend taking multiples, along with an Aegis defence line. Overwatch is also a brilliant boon, especially against a single opponent (Farsight charged solo into my unit of 6 FWs). Snapfire is great, if you're been forced to go-to-ground. if you have a large enough unit, then BS1 isn't going to hurt your chances, especially if the enemy is within Rapid fire range.
I'll mention Pathfinders here as they're similar. Though the carbine isn't useful on our troop,s it still allows the PFs some offensive capability. which is good if you've lost a good portion of your force in the game. Those extra couple of S5 AP5 shots can make a difference.
Thats my two cents from my game today.
Quote from: Cammerz on July 11, 2012, 02:22:34 PM
Quote from: Wargamer on July 11, 2012, 01:27:52 PM
The fact that a Krootox can no-longer be instagibbed by Str 6 will surely see them used more often.
Unfortunately, they can, its only in the 3rd edition codex that they were T3(5), in the current 4th edition codex they're just T3. Makes no sense to me but hopefully they'll fix it in the next book.
Well, with the right positioning it should be pretty hard to land a wound on those T3 krootox thanks to the gigantic kroot blob living around them. While I wouldn't have dreamt of taking them in 5th since infiltrate was just such a big deal, now with the new rapid fire and vehicle damage rules, I have no issue trading infiltrate for an extra 3-6 S7 shots. Still not sure if I want to take kroot though...