Second Sphere

Hello, everyone;

For a while now, I've been a supporter of the idea of female space marines. This means that I have been involved in or spectated through several of the infamously contentious arguments about the matter, on various forums.

A while back, my interest and drive regarding the matter was sparked again. Wargamer had posted an Index Astartes on the Bolter and Chainsword forums about his own chapter, the Supernovas; who include a very small number of female space marines ('Adepta Astartes,' as his chapter calls them). Wargamer and I had spent a LOT of time together figuring out whether their existince was plausible, and what methods and reasoning could plausibly have been used for them to exist. The ensuant firestorm of blindly antagonistic nonsense and the BnC's attitude of "Avoid the contention by hushing up anyone who wanted to talk about it" got me rather mad. The BnC's moderatorship claimed that 'everything that can be said on the matter has been, and has been argued over uncivilly dozens of times, so just don't sayin anything." So I decided to respond.

However, thankfully I didn't respond in anger. Instead, I started to think over the matter very thoroughly, and realized that in my discussions with Wargamer about his adepta, I had stumbled across or engineered some entirely new concepts and arguments on the subject. Since I realized this meant I had something novel to contribute, I wrote it up and got it posted.

I went through the BnC's mods to do this. Little did I know, but the location on the forum I was directed to post it meant that it would effectively never see the light of day; rather than initiating the thought and discussion I'd hoped for, it got a half-handful of cursory comments, then sat collecting dust for months.

Well, I'm tired of that, so I decided to repost it on a forum I felt was better suited to look it over and respond with the thoughtful discussion I'd been hoping for. So, here it is.

Quote from: 'Brother Daeger Helsir' date='May 18 2012, 11:38 AM' post='3064128'
Good morning, everybody.

As I was motivated by a renewal of this controversy in a recent IA (http://"http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=252244") by my friend Wargamer, I decided to write a post outlining the methodology and justification behind why I've concluded female Astartes are, in fact, justifiable by the fluff. The line of reasoning I'm going to lay out here is something that I haven't seen in this thread, the Librarium debate essays, or in any other discussion of female Astartes that I've seen on this site, so hopefully this means I have an opportunity to contribute something new and meaningful to the discussion. I will warn you in advance that I'm about to throw a text wall at you, but I've tried to break it up and keep it as readable as I can.

______________________________________________

Introduction:

Quote from: 'Gree' post='3059626' date='May 12 2012, 01:45 PM'"These considerations mean that only a small proportion of people can become Space Marines. They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If these tests prove successful, a candidate becomes a neophyte. With the completion of organ implantation and attendant chemical and hypnotic training, the subject becomes an initiate. An initiate receives training before joining the ranks as a full brother. A Marine usually joins the ranks between the ages of 16-18, but such are the hormonal changes induced by the process of creating a Space Marine that recruits are physically fully grown before then. Pressures during wartime may accelerate the process. " -Index Astartes I

This here should be eminently recognizable to those of us who follow the debate. It is the critical quote from Index Astartes I, the White Dwarf article outlining the process of creating a Space Marine. I thank Gree for providing it so that I didn't have to.

There are (in my opinion fairly convincing) arguments that can be made against this fluff being taken as ironclad or still relevant. However, I will actually be ignoring them today. I am going to address this piece of fluff and the ways beyond it, through it, alongside it and around it that my friend Wargamer and I reasoned out together, that justify the existence and possibility of Female Astartes. I am also going to try to do so in a candid, levelheaded, and non-inflammatory fashion, as this debate has far too often been tainted with ad hominem insults and charged emotions by both sides.

------------------------------------------------------------------

The basic assumptions of the analysis are as follows:

-If true and accurate, the excerpt in question is enumerating the process as it was initially designed and intended. Most things can be put to uses different than those they were designed and intended for, albeit with varying degrees of success. It's up to us here to figure out how and to what degree this process could be used beyond its intent.

-Geneseed carries within it genes from the Primarch from whom it was derived; fully or in part, a Space Marine has these genetic elements added to their genome during the process of becoming a Space Marine. (This will become very important later on in the post.)


The Arch-Objection:

The root of much of the opposition's conviction and the and strongest single piece of evidence against Female Space Marines is this particular line of the IA quote Gree provides us:

"They must be male, because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types:"

If you have taken a human physiology class, you will understand why this statement is largely scientific nonsense. However, I am going to proceed anyways under the assumption that it is as true as is reasonably possible within the knowledge of scientific fact. This generates the following conditions:

*Space Marine implants are designed to respond to or function within very specific conditions, closely associated with those present in a pubescent/prepubescent male body. Namely, this would mean amongst other things certain concentrations of Androgens (Hormones promoting development of masculine characteristics, including the well-known testosterone.)

*Space Marine implants are designed to respond to or function in the presence of chemical markers and tissue types that have developed a composition consistent with masculine development.

*Additional possible interpretation: Space Marine implants require the presence of a Y-chromosome to function.

To address these:
* Male and female "tissue types" actually derive from exactly the same cellular origins and frequently even have similar to identical names, structures, and functions. The male and female genitalia both come from the exact same piece of tissue on an embryo, which simply forms itself into one of the two depending on what developmental signals it recieves. Where they differ is really not in the tissues (the building blocks, if you will) but the structures they develop into (The architecture.) To turn it into an analogy, you can have a Gothic cathedral and a Medieval castle, and sure they look distinctly different, but they're both made out of stone, and it would be possible to use the stones from a cathedral to build a castle, or vice versa.

*Furthermore, that piece of embryonic tissue is actually proto-female; it either continues developing into female sexual organs by default, or develops into male sexual organs only if suitable developmental signal chemicals from the Y-chromosome intervene. By this measure, the conversion of a female into the required male is something that already happens 50% of the time in nature.

* Men and women both produce androgens as well as estrogens (hormones promoting female characteristics.) These are the deciding factor in the way the body develops at puberty, with the normal state of things being that one set of hormones will be produced in massive quantities, the other in minimal. The normal state of affairs is, of course, a male body being flooded with androgens and a female body being flooded with estrogens, and production of the other set is there but minimal.

* This is why for athletes who abuse steroids (many of which are androgenic compounds), the secondary side effects are developing body characteristics normally associated only with the other gender. Women bulk out, then begin to suffer side effects like growing facial and body hair, deeper voices, rendering themselves sterile through overexposure to a conflicting set of hormones, etcetera. Men initially bulk out massively, then the flood of artificial androgens burns out their body's ability to produce adequate androgens naturally. This causes a proportional jump in estrogens, and so men who've abused steroids eventually lose most of their muscle mass, begin developing breasts, higher voices, render themselves sterile through overexposure to conflicting hormones, etcetera.

*Were the flood of artificial hormones to be introduced at around puberty, the effects would be even more dramatically pronounced, and if properly maintained, the end results would be even more indistinguishable from the other gender. This is actually the basis of a lot of gender-reassignment therapy for transgendered people, and if you don't believe me, believe your eyes: The following two people are  genetically male (http://"http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Nongthoomfairtex.jpg"), and genetically female, (http://"http://www.balian-buschbaum.de/typo3temp/pics/Buschbaum9_01_5e20642821.jpg") respectively. (No, I didn't get those links mixed up, trust me.)

*Human growth hormone, the other factor kicking in at puberty that causes massive growth and muscular development (and considering a Marine's stature, presumably a large part of why it's so important the process start when aspirants are around the age of puberty) is completely gender-neutral in operation. The statistical height and bulk differences between male and females come from the fact that the unmodified male body generally produces significantly more of it than the unmodified female body, another hormonal difference that is easily accommodated for.

*As a minor sidenote, since the notable differences between genders come largely due to the flood of androgens or estrogens at puberty, before puberty male and female humans are considerably more similar to each other than after. If the process is keyed to the body conditions of a young/preadolescent male, which is what the crucial recruitment age makes it seem to be, there is even less chemical and developmental difference between the genders to compensate for.

So what does this all mean?:
In terms of the chemical and biological analysis that are what would matter for Space Marine-style biological manipulation, "maleness" and "femaleness" of a body is primarily determined by the proportion and presence of various hormones, particularly during the key development stage of puberty (Which is when Marines are normally created). It is known scientific fact that these hormone ratios can be artificially manipulated to swing the development one way or another.

To we regular humans in the modern day, abusing steroid hormones is generally considered a Bad Thing because it tends to make you sterile and plays havoc with your body's signals on how much to express the characteristics associated with each gender. Space Marines are known to be sterile anyways, however, and in this case playing havoc with the signals that determine external gender characteristics is the entire point. It is also known that hormone therapy and manipulation is already used on male aspirants. Therefore, employing suitable hormone manipulation on a female aspirant would be a relatively straightforward adaptation of the process. The end result of this process would be a technically-female aspirant who has a majority appearance, development, and biochemical register of a male person, thus enabling compatibility with the geneseed.

---

The possible sticking point of the Y-chromosome:
It is both possible and plausible to interpret the Index Astartes quote as meaning that, amongst other things, an aspirant must have a Y chromosome, and that the implants must somehow detect and interact with this Y chromosome in order to be activated. This adds more hurdles to the making of a female space marine, and reinforces Wargamer's assesment that his Adepta Astartes would have far lower implant success rates even than male marines.

Even this doesn't make it impossible, though.

To address this:
The way past this requires known elements from a number of sources:

*The geneseed/the process of making a Space Marine is seen, over and over again, to reshape a Space Marine to more strongly resemble his primarch. Russ' sons grow shaggy, fanged, and feral like he was; Corax and Vulkan's descendants share their unusual pigmentation; The Luna Wolves have multiple notable examples of marines who bore extraordinarily close resemblance to Horus; Alpharius' entire legion looked exactly like him; Blood Angels frequently bear an exceptionally strong resemblance to Sanguinius; and the list goes on and on. Considering that the process of becoming a space marine is frequently described as both "genetic and surgical" but the IA1 mostly only describes surgical elements of organ implantation, the only reasonable explanation for this is that a Space Marine retroactively has a portion of the Primarch's genome spliced into his own, causing him to develop and express these characteristic traits. This is consistent with modern-day understanding of gene therapy and its results.

*It is well known that organ acceptance or rejection is an important factor determining whether a space marine aspirant succeeds, or fails (and likely dies.) In real life, organ rejection is known to be a factor of whether or not the donor's genes are close enough to the recipients' in order for the recipient's body not to attack it as foreign. Thus, it is a reasonable guess that successful marines were a closer genetic match to begin with. It is also rather likely however, considering how incredibly genetically diverse a population most Chapters recruit from, that some of the gene therapy involves adding enough of the Primarch's genome that the implants are much more likely to be accepted, and that this tampering is simply more successful for some aspirants than others.

*Given this genetic manipulation technology, which we're already beginning to see proven in real life, it would require some additional effort and trial-and-error, but actually be relatively straightforward to make part of this gene-therapy include transferring the Y-chromosome of the Primarch in question, as stored in their geneseed, to the female aspirant. For the purposes of genetic manipulation techniques, a Y-chromosome is no different from any other subset of genetic code in this regard.

*The result of this would be an "XXY" "female" capable of receiving the implants. In humans, XXY individuals sometimes even occur naturally; it results in individuals who have what is termed "Klinefelter's Syndrome." These individuals are technically genetically male, due to possessing a y chromosome, but the multiple X chromosomes cause them to develop significant feminine attributes and appearances; many eventually become transwomen.

*So, the end result is that a female aspirant has in effect been masculinized and turned into a Kleinfelter's "male," enabling them to successfully receive space marine implants. Due to the additional complications, the process is accordingly and reasonably less often successful and fails more spectacularly than with male aspirants, but in the final analysis it is still possible with reasonable, but not prohibitive, additional effort and difficulty.

*There is even another possibility; It is also possible for an individual to have the normal, male set of XY chromosomes, but develop as female due to other factors impairing the expression of the Y chromosome. Though such individuals are not common, this still means that a completely unmodified, developmentally female aspirant with a female identity could already possess the required Y-chromosome.

The difficulties with Altering Geneseed: Another complication that is often brought up by opponents to the idea of female space marines is that several of the suggested methods to make them work would involve altering the geneseed directly so that it would work in women. The difficulties they point out are:

*Near-religious considerations of custom and tradition making the Imperium as a whole reluctant to mess with geneseed, if not considering it outright heresy.
*The utter lack of knowledge and skill even SM Apothecaries have on the matter, compared to the scientific genius of the Emperor who created geneseed. Evidence from fluff attempts to modify geneseed show that at best, the Imperium's greatest minds stumble half-blind in the dark here.

Thankfully for my case, the justification I've been outlining sidesteps both problems. It focuses on making the female aspirant compatible with the geneseed, not making the geneseed compatible with the aspirant, and so involves no tampering with the function or genetic code of the geneseed.

---

Conclusion:
In summary, between known fluff extrapolated (inclusively) with real science, and even including the information stated from Index Astartes 1, female space marines are possible; not so much more difficult to make that they would never happen; but also less likely to work out, as they are being altered to better suit a process not designed for them; and significantly more difficult enough that they would still be suitably uncommon in the 40k universe.

It is debatable whether the appearance or physiology of these female marines would be much recognizable as female, if at all. However, it is equally debatable whether regular space marines are truly male, or even human, anymore. Despite this, conventional marines continue to mentally identify and be identified as male, and so it is reasonable to assume that the "female" marines in question would continue to think of themselves as female.

So: To those who want female Astartes in 40k, this method offers one possible justification. To those who don't want female astartes in 40k, this solution still has something to offer for them, as it suggests that making female space marines this way would be difficult enough to preclude them from becoming more than a rarity. That rarity would be enough to ensure that if you find them bothersome, female space marines never crop up in "your" corner of the Imperium.


-Fin.-

This is an incredibly good read, and needs more discussion, though near everything I could think of is covered.

With this as my backing, I'd be less tentative about modeling female space marines, but for obvious reasons that you can see from this, you wouldn't have a space marine looking like this:
(http://tutofig.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/How-to-make-a-Female-Space-Marine-in-Robes-Simple-5-minute-tutorial.jpg)

I'd recon a gender nuetral armour like here (http://orcbruto.deviantart.com/art/Warhammer-40-000-Power-Armors-342620518), would be best for an armour that includes both "Genders"

I seen some non 40k female space marines floating about. I would say I can see females being space marines, but there is a huge male tone like battle brother, and male identifiers being used in the 40k terminology when addressing marines. I always figured that sisters of battle are female marines of sorts. Model wise they have almost marine stats mixed with guard stats with divine powers to draw upon.

Going back to the previous sister's codex I would say they where superior to marines. On the table top I would be scared of the possible 10 woman squad of rending, +3 invulnerable save, strength 5, inititave 5, fearless sisters with eviserator, heavy flamer, flamer than a 10 man marine squad with two flamers and a power fist.

Not saying sisters are now garbage compared to what they use to do, I remember my two canoness laughing destroying half an army bythemselves. Not saying that St. Celestine in the past could easily beat MCs and was better than an Archon. Just saying sisters are differant.

I would dare say females either join the guard or sisters of battle.

Sisters are not, nor have ever been, Female Space Marines. In modern terms, calling them Space Marines would be akin to calling the police force a part of the Army. Sisters are mortal Humans, equipped with inferior weapons (Astartes Boltguns are so massive a normal person cannot use them as anything short of an emplaced weapon), inferior armour (Astartes power armour gets more toys) and less of the high-end technoarcana.

In essence, equating Sisters to Space Marines is rather like saying "So, you're a girl and you want to be part of the football team? Sure! We can always use more cheerleaders!"

Quote from: Narric of 4th Sphere on December 14, 2012, 12:26:58 PM
This is an incredibly good read, and needs more discussion, though near everything I could think of is covered.

With this as my backing, I'd be less tentative about modeling female space marines, but for obvious reasons that you can see from this, you wouldn't have a space marine looking like this:
(http://tutofig.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/How-to-make-a-Female-Space-Marine-in-Robes-Simple-5-minute-tutorial.jpg)

Glad you approve of the article!

Yeah... That's "How Not to Model Female Marines," if you ask me. Doctor Thunder may be one of the most prominent advocates for female marines, but I would not exactly call him our most convincing champion.

The thing is, power armor's already so bulky there's no real need to put 'boobplates' on it, of any size. Kenton Kilgore's Fighting Tigers of Veda have loads of female marines, and most of them are just a female mini's head on a regular space marine body, but it works out just fine.

Quote from: Chicop76 on December 14, 2012, 02:05:04 PM
I always figured that sisters of battle are female marines of sorts. Model wise they have almost marine stats mixed with guard stats with divine powers to draw upon.

No... SOB's are IG vets in power armor, plus funky faith powers. That doesn't remotely make them space marines.

Quote
Going back to the previous sister's codex I would say they where superior to marines. On the table top I would be scared of the possible 10 woman squad of rending, +3 invulnerable save, strength 5, inititave 5, fearless sisters with eviserator, heavy flamer, flamer than a 10 man marine squad with two flamers and a power fist.

Completely missing the point. The tabletop effectiveness of Sisters and Space Marines has absolutely nothing to do with a discussion about whether Female Astartes could happen.

Quote from: Wargamer on December 14, 2012, 02:37:12 PM
In essence, equating Sisters to Space Marines is rather like saying "So, you're a girl and you want to be part of the football team? Sure! We can always use more cheerleaders!"

More like saying... "Oh, you want to join the New Orleans Saints? Well, I hear the high school JV team's got openings, it's almost the same thing!"

On the subject of "Could they happen", of course they could.  Anything CAN happen.  For all we know that 1 of the missing Primarchs (or even BOTH) was female, as was her Legion.  There are too many (deliberate) empty holes in 40K lore for the possibility to exist. 

That having been said, the general consensus is that all CURRENT loyal Astartes are male and are picked from male stock, and regular fan-made lore should reflect that.  For Chaos Marines, well, they do get warped a lot, and Slaanesh does like certain attributes...

If you want to model a female space marine army, that is your choice, and I would probably raise an eyebrow at it, but I would still play against/alongside you.  I would hope you do a good job of modeling it, though.  I do like to see well built armies.

Quote from: Charistoph on December 14, 2012, 04:12:58 PM
On the subject of "Could they happen", of course they could.  Anything CAN happen.  For all we know that 1 of the missing Primarchs (or even BOTH) was female, as was her Legion.  There are too many (deliberate) empty holes in 40K lore for the possibility to exist. 

That having been said, the general consensus is that all CURRENT loyal Astartes are male and are picked from male stock, and regular fan-made lore should reflect that.  For Chaos Marines, well, they do get warped a lot, and Slaanesh does like certain attributes...

If you want to model a female space marine army, that is your choice, and I would probably raise an eyebrow at it, but I would still play against/alongside you.  I would hope you do a good job of modeling it, though.  I do like to see well built armies.

This is a classic response I've seen many times. I call it the "dismissive agreement." I.e; "Sure maybe it COULD happen but really it wouldn't, because flying giggling lovey dovey pink Warp elephants COULD pop into existence and save the day, too. Oh and because I say 'consensus' says it doesn't."

Between the lines, the whole post reads as "Sure whatever kid, I'll humor your delusional antics, but no, female marines are not really plausible."

Messing with the unknown primarchs is a forty gigaton landmine, no matter how you slice it. Slaaneshi warped marines is a viable explanation, but inherently precludes the existence of loyalist Adepta. I wrote this article to explore the possibility and feasibility of creating loyal, Imperial, female space marines. The suggestions you're trotting out here are sideshows that have been brought up dozens of times already.

You also throw the word consensus around, but you can't really put your finger on who that consensus is. You just assume the weight of like-minded individuals is behind you, and use this as a rhetorical bludgeon to shut down different opinions.

I also wonder how thoroughly you read my discussion, considering the fact that in the process of justifying female Space Marines, I clearly state the caveat that they would be relatively uncommon, and male space marines would still completely be considered the 'norm' of what an astartes is, as a result.

Interesting point to mention here actually: prior to 3rd Edition there wasn't much, if any mention of Female Guard that I can find. The Codex mentioned "female regiments", but that was about it. All the artwork was of males, all the novels contained male characters, etc. The GW universe was a place of Men doing Manly things like fighting.

But... just take a look now at the novels, artwork, etc. The models are still a sausage fest, but the wider setting has much improved. We see female Guard more often. We see female Planetary Governors who aren't just things to be kidnapped and held to ransom. We see female Archmagi of the Mechanicum, female Admirals of the Imperial Navy, female Inquisitor Lords, etc. The 40K universe has, in effect, grown up. It has acknowledged that it is not only rather sad, dated and unrealistic to assume women exist solely as a back-scene baby factory (outside the rather fetishistic "nuns with guns" Sisterhood) but that it's just outright stupid as well. I mean seriously, are you going to make the argument "women don't make good soldiers" in 40K? A female Catachan civilian probably has more muscle mass than most of the US Army's best. Cadians, all Cadians, are taught to field-strip a lasgun before they can read and write. Hell, if you want to be extreme, are you telling me a female Ogryn isn't a good soldier? She's so tough small arms fire is an annoyance to her, nothing more, and strong enough to squeeze a normal human like a tube of toothpaste.

With all these points raised, it remains kind of sad that GW desperately cling to the 'cloistered boys club' of the Adeptus Astartes as a selling point.

I seen some female models for the guard. I rememeber a comissar and a metal femal grenade launcher of the top of my head.

Inferior weapons?? The sisters main force have every weapon that a marine has. In the old codex you had some veteran guard elements that had slightly better guard weapons, but sisters have most of the equpiment a marine has.

A standard sister in game terms have the same bs, leadership and armour save as a marine. Everything else is on the level of a guardsmen. I have to re read the fluff from 3rd and up about the sisters since it has been a while since I have read it. The sisters however is considered more elite than a guard force, looking at how they nerf the hell out of them it is hard to see that. Thinking of them makes me remember how badly they was nerved. It's like hey blood angels let's make you into a regular marine army, while we at it let's take away all special rules like no fear, and breaking down squads, etc, and than saying" oh let's give them a +6 feel no pain that follows the 5th edition rules to make up for what they did.

Sisters standard weapon is the same as a marine. Instead of powerfist they get eviserators which are better anyway.

It's like I know you girls want to play pro footbal, but hey we will let you play in a minor league or arena football.

By the way at one point I think some high school football teams like hanville, or Saint Augustine could had beaten the Saints doing the Aints paper bag days. Lsu for sure could had beaten them.

Also a lot of SWAT teams are prior marines and army, and can out perform your typicqal army soilder. I think people in general give our army too much credit. The reason we do so well is due to intelligence and technology. In any engagement where those two items are missing we don't perorm as well. Special Forces on the other hand is a very differant story and they should receive the utmost respect.

The only thing I've seen which states whether female marines are or aren't possible is the Black Crusade rulebook (for those who don't know its a 40k-based RPG where you play as a disciple of chaos).
I'm not sure whether or not the Fantasy Flight stuff counts as official in terms of fluff but it says the following;

QuoteFor Chaos Space Marines, their sex and gender must be male, due to the requirements of the geneseed (although millenia of mutation and the influence of the warp may render this distinction meaningless).

As for the whole female Imperial Guard thing, Dan Abnett's Gaunt's Ghosts novels contain a number of major characters who are female guardsmen. Amongst them are found; Sgt Tona Criid, several of the snipers and Medic Ana Curth.

(http://www.google.com/search?q=Female+40k,guard+models&hl=en&client=ms-android-sprint-us&tbo=d&source=android-launcher-widget&v=133247963&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=i2nLUNesNqiU2gWflIHgBQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=320&bih=508#i=102)

Quote from: Cammerz on December 14, 2012, 05:27:43 PM
The only thing I've seen which states whether female marines are or aren't possible is the Black Crusade rulebook (for those who don't know its a 40k-based RPG where you play as a disciple of chaos).
I'm not sure whether or not the Fantasy Flight stuff counts as official in terms of fluff but it says the following;

QuoteFor Chaos Space Marines, their sex and gender must be male, due to the requirements of the geneseed (although millenia of mutation and the influence of the warp may render this distinction meaningless).

As for the whole female Imperial Guard thing, Dan Abnett's Gaunt's Ghosts novels contain a number of major characters who are female guardsmen. Amongst them are found; Sgt Tona Criid, several of the snipers and Medic Ana Curth.




http://www.google.com/search?q=Female+40k,guard+models&hl=en&client=ms-android-sprint-us&tbo=d&source=android-launcher-widget&v=133247963&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=i2nLUNesNqiU2gWflIHgBQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=320&bih=508#i=102  (http://www.google.com/search?q=Female+40k,guard+models&hl=en&client=ms-android-sprint-us&tbo=d&source=android-launcher-widget&v=133247963&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=i2nLUNesNqiU2gWflIHgBQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=320&bih=508#i=102)

Here is a link which has two models I mentioned. I remember on Tau Online someone did a female guard project and the models came out pretty nice. I didn't like the arms, but other than that they wasn't bad models.

I have found female heads in the past and other model companies which have decent female models for guard. The problem being is I want majority 40 models although the models I cam across all you had to do is replace the guns and the forge world lasguns look better and you would be able to replace the guns easier using those weapons.

With marines you can slim the model down so it would have a more female apperance.

I've actually found someone currently active in making Female Space Marine parts.

http://battlesuits.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Female%20Space%20Marines

They even have the parts available to purchase.

Noseying backwards into their archive, they have a comparison shot, which to me makes the modified parts pretty decent.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YkK_9KlnoyQ/TVIp6WK87QI/AAAAAAAAABk/Rxw7qH6tCtU/s320/size+comparison.jpg)

Quote from: Narric of 4th Sphere on December 14, 2012, 06:57:51 PM
I've actually found someone currently active in making Female Space Marine parts.

http://battlesuits.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Female%20Space%20Marines

They even have the parts available to purchase.

Noseying backwards into their archive, they have a comparison shot, which to me makes the modified parts pretty decent.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YkK_9KlnoyQ/TVIp6WK87QI/AAAAAAAAABk/Rxw7qH6tCtU/s320/size+comparison.jpg)

http://eurekamin.com.au/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=conversion&x=10&y=10  (http://eurekamin.com.au/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=conversion&x=10&y=10)

Here is a link to female torsos. I'm thinking of getting some elysians and swaping out parts and se how they work out.

I'm going to check the marine one, but I really don't like the arms :(

Chicop, those are quite clearly Imperial Guard torsos. I posted Space Corsair's work, because it was specifically for Space Marines, which is what this thread is/was intended to be for.

Quote from: Cammerz on December 14, 2012, 05:27:43 PM
The only thing I've seen which states whether female marines are or aren't possible is the Black Crusade rulebook (for those who don't know its a 40k-based RPG where you play as a disciple of chaos).
I'm not sure whether or not the Fantasy Flight stuff counts as official in terms of fluff but it says the following;

QuoteFor Chaos Space Marines, their sex and gender must be male, due to the requirements of the geneseed (although millenia of mutation and the influence of the warp may render this distinction meaningless).

As for the whole female Imperial Guard thing, Dan Abnett's Gaunt's Ghosts novels contain a number of major characters who are female guardsmen. Amongst them are found; Sgt Tona Criid, several of the snipers and Medic Ana Curth.

"Not even Chaos is Chaos enough to have female marines".

Sorry, Chicop, but stating "they use the same gear" is completely wrong. They have the same rules in 40K, but we are not talking about tabletop rules here; this is as much, if not more, about background, and in background Astartes gear is all but unusable by mere mortals. For example, just a few quotes given:

Astartes frag grenades are described as being so big that a normal Human woman can barely wrap both hands around it. By contrast, a 'normal' frag grenade used by the Imperial Guard and others are most definitely small enough for one-handed use.

Astartes 'swords' are bloody huge monsters. Hell, the Astartes combat knife has been pretty solidly classified as big enough to count as a sword to normal people.

As I mentioned earlier, the Godwyn pattern Bolter and its relatives is meant to be huge. The Godwyn-De'az is what the Sisters use, and is likely a miniaturised version of the gun to make it suitable for Humans. An Astartes-issue Bolter is a monstrous weapon, so heavy most humans would require a firing brace.

Astartes Power Armour in Inquisitor and Dark Heresy is typically better. The former, certainly, threw in a lot more toys; it had additional ablative ceramite plating, making it more resistant to thermal and energy weapons as well as upping its overall protection. Astartes Power Armour also links directly with the user via Black Carapace; it is never stated that the equivalent armours used by Sisters or Inquisitors incorporates this feature.

In short, the Astartes do have better gear, and that's before we consider their tanks, their support weapons, their gunships, fleet, etc. As powerful as the Sisterhood may be, they are still little more than elite, mortal infantry. The presence of five Sisters might turn the tide of a battle, but just five Space Marines can conquer an entire world.

That's primarily why I don't like the "Sisters" answer. They fill a very different niche, both in background and on the tabletop.

Would now be the right time to mention my Ultrawolves? They have a few females among them (they're fleet based, and its hard enough to keep the chapter from dying out as it is to start selecting for something pre-pubescent unimportant to the space marine precedures as gender, whose impact bar identity issues are largely past puberty) Enfin, I'll resist delving into the complicated (but rather interesting, if I may say so) fluff of my loyalists' chapter. They don't really parade their female battle-brothers around, because it's pointless and I think they fear getting codex-slapped by the Ultramarines... hehe.

I am glad someone summed up all the points I tend to drum up when 'boys' complain about the odd feminine name on the base edges of my space marine models though (between that and female heads, I think it doesn't need shouting from the roof what gender you are, really, least of all in 40k, and I write the names of all my models on their bases tbh)

Oh and please - no boob plates; its actually mildly condescending/insulting and also completely pointless and rather cheesecakey. Who cares about boobs, wasn't this whole game about doing some serious rear-end kicking?  :facepalm001:

For some reason (...) I always get a bit pissy when guys say: "Why don't you go play Sororitas, they are chicks in power armour?" I don't usually dignify people with an answer any more on that one. It should be obvious why I am not playing Sororitas: I want to play Space Marines. Fuu! And I want there to be some women, because its sometimes a bit hard to identify with frothing-at-the-mouth-Abaddon or Calgar's-40k-Epeen-waving. That, and I think there are no real (other than: 'I don't like it' arguments) reasons not to have them, as was so eloquently detailed at the start of this thread. Besides, having had some martial arts training, I can kick decent butt. There is women in our own armies. There is women in pretty much all top positions. Few. But they're there. *shrug* I don't see what stops a chapter from recruiting them, enough chapters don't take the codex in-universe too narrow (Space Wolves most notably), it all depends on mentality. I doubt there are female Black Templers, but I am sure there are some beardless Space Wolves that aren't young men! ;)

Speaking of which, I thought (that I had read somewhere) that Space Marines aren't sterile, but that they can't conceive 'baby space marines' (and that this was entirely intended by the Emperor to keep them from founding little post-human dynasty empires and what not). But they could settle down and have completely normal kids, if they'd want that. It also lines up with some of the things Abnett suggests in the HH books, in that at least Horus was making sure his boys would have a life after war. And if there is an idea of 'after war', then certainly the Emperor wouldn't have rendered a few billion men completely biologically pointless intentionally? *shrugs* Anyway, that's what I thought!

I should really get around to uploading some of my Ultrawolf fluff, especially my dabbling in their background and some of the accompanying short stories. It would be interesting to get you guys' opinions on it.

-- Just my two cents! X- Linn / aka Brother-Captain (Nina) Orkbane  ::)

(PS. dealing with masculine titles and monikers like battle-brother is really not such a big deal; not to me anyway. Its easier that way. I rather be called Inquisitor Von Saar too, than Inquisitrix. So fetishtastic, most female monikers people come up with :P)

Well, "Inquisitor" has already been proven a gender-neutral title, but there are ways around it. Assassin's Creed, funnily enough, provides one. They are the "Brotherhood" of Assassins. They have female members, and this is made very clear from the get-go (assuming everyone in the castle in AC1 is an 'assassin'. If not, AC2 outright confirms it) yet they remain a Brotherhood, not a "Brotherhood and Sisterhood". Ergo, if you are a full-fledged Space Marine you are a Battle Brother irrespective of sex.

Mhm. I really don't understand why people make such a big deal out of it (read: start flamming me as soon as they lay eye on 1. my models or 2. bother to ask my opinion on it, as I am apparently a rare commodity myself as a 40k space marine playing woman). I personally find the whole issue a bit childish - it reminds me unfondly of when I was younger and the neighbour kids would say "you can't play soccer with us because your a girl and girls can't play soccer"...

On a META-level, there's nothing that makes it impossible (have a cookie and a hug, Isaac!  :)). Just slightly more difficult than the already incredibly difficult (15% success ratio anyone?) process of making a Space Marine to begin with. Suggesting all women, everywhere, would never have what it takes to be a Space Marine (or to be noticed/selected as a potential initiate) is pretty condescending at best (and I'd personally say rather discriminating/misogynic), especially as most of what Space Marines are is highly genetic/chemically induced, at any rate.

On an in-universe level, Space Marines seem so damn practical, and so very varying in opinions and believes, I can't see (all of) them dismiss potential promising recruits of female gender out of hand, just because they're female. It doesn't require reinventing Template Machinery to make up for it, either. To my Ultrawolves, at least, the whole gender-thing is like hair-colour or eye-colour: pretty unimportant when it comes to what it means to be a Space Marine!

Admittedly, you'd have a tough time figuring out one of my SM ladies is a lady, if you saw her walk by. But beside a male battle-brother, the slight differences remaining become obvious - the curve of eyes and lips, the slant of jaw and slight differences in stature. This is presuming of course you get to see them out of Power Armour! There's no telling with helmets on! Hehe!

Quote from: Linn Scarlett on December 14, 2012, 08:15:18 PM
Would now be the right time to mention my Ultrawolves? They have a few females among them (they're fleet based, and its hard enough to keep the chapter from dying out as it is to start selecting for something pre-pubescent unimportant to the space marine precedures as gender, whose impact bar identity issues are largely past puberty) Enfin, I'll resist delving into the complicated (but rather interesting, if I may say so) fluff of my loyalists' chapter. They don't really parade their female battle-brothers around, because it's pointless and I think they fear getting codex-slapped by the Ultramarines... hehe.

I am glad someone summed up all the points I tend to drum up when 'boys' complain about the odd feminine name on the base edges of my space marine models though (between that and female heads, I think it doesn't need shouting from the roof what gender you are, really, least of all in 40k, and I write the names of all my models on their bases tbh)

Oh and please - no boob plates; its actually mildly condescending/insulting and also completely pointless and rather cheesecakey. Who cares about boobs, wasn't this whole game about doing some serious rear-end kicking?  :facepalm001:

For some reason (...) I always get a bit pissy when guys say: "Why don't you go play Sororitas, they are chicks in power armour?" I don't usually dignify people with an answer any more on that one. It should be obvious why I am not playing Sororitas: I want to play Space Marines. Fuu! And I want there to be some women, because its sometimes a bit hard to identify with frothing-at-the-mouth-Abaddon or Calgar's-40k-Epeen-waving. That, and I think there are no real (other than: 'I don't like it' arguments) reasons not to have them, as was so eloquently detailed at the start of this thread. Besides, having had some martial arts training, I can kick decent butt. There is women in our own armies. There is women in pretty much all top positions. Few. But they're there. *shrug* I don't see what stops a chapter from recruiting them, enough chapters don't take the codex in-universe too narrow (Space Wolves most notably), it all depends on mentality. I doubt there are female Black Templers, but I am sure there are some beardless Space Wolves that aren't young men! ;)

Speaking of which, I thought (that I had read somewhere) that Space Marines aren't sterile, but that they can't conceive 'baby space marines' (and that this was entirely intended by the Emperor to keep them from founding little post-human dynasty empires and what not). But they could settle down and have completely normal kids, if they'd want that. It also lines up with some of the things Abnett suggests in the HH books, in that at least Horus was making sure his boys would have a life after war. And if there is an idea of 'after war', then certainly the Emperor wouldn't have rendered a few billion men completely biologically pointless intentionally? *shrugs* Anyway, that's what I thought!

I should really get around to uploading some of my Ultrawolf fluff, especially my dabbling in their background and some of the accompanying short stories. It would be interesting to get you guys' opinions on it.

-- Just my two cents! X- Linn / aka Brother-Captain (Nina) Orkbane  ::)

(PS. dealing with masculine titles and monikers like battle-brother is really not such a big deal; not to me anyway. Its easier that way. I rather be called Inquisitor Von Saar too, than Inquisitrix. So fetishtastic, most female monikers people come up with :P)

I can see space wolves doing so. It would make sense for them to have female marines. Heck I play sisters of battle :(. I took them up cause of the fleur de lais and I'm from New Orleans which is a strong Catholic city, also a strong lustful city :). Anyway they fit wit my back ground and that's why I decided to play them. I thought about doing a pope mobile, but thanks to rule changes that's not going to happen.

Well their weapons have to be bigger since they like 10-12 ft tall. If you are double a persons size you need double the person weapons. Sadly the table top does not show this.

I would like boobs to show how ever that my model is a female. However nudity and stripper looks is not what I am going for, although I did get vects female slaves from the barge to represent Mardi Gras ( traditional female raise shirt boobs are shown while thy screaming" throw me something mister" and they receive throws). How ever I want competent looking females as my actual troops and not gun bunnies. The boobs is there for oh it's a female and not for male pleasure.

However without re read a ton of fluff it's doubful for a female to be a marine. Like I said before they would more likely be molded into a sister than a marine.

The space wolves is in a situation where hey you kick butt, so you're a marine. The environment moldsa Space Wolves into the best marines in the universe.

For our forces we still don't have woman in special forces to my knowledge. I know with the year they just started putting woman in front line positions. You can see space marines as those special forces. Is it fair, I really can't tell you. Personally I have no problem having a woman green berett. As far as I've been told woman can't pass the required physical conditioning for the special forces in America. However I think Isreali special forces do have woman and some othe countries. Do they change the requirement for woman to pass is beyond me. All I can say woman and men physical training scores are not the same. For example I have to do 40 pushups while a woman my age can get away with 22. If they need to do the same with special forces maybe, but you have to concider they go through a much differant ordeal than a standard soilder.

Also we don't call woman Huwomans. We call people humans. A lot of terms where females are included still use male dominant terms as discriptors.

Hmm, well, I can't say for all, but where I trained we had no nancy-standards for women. You either make it, or you don't.

Sure, there are physical differences and men - but not ALL men, not even the 'vast majority' of them - are ahead on strength and endurance at pure baseline, but that difference is not insurmountable. Our sexual dimorphism in that regard is a joke compared to most other species, and its getting less and less. That and part of why women lack behind is also psychological - don't underestimate the power of culture and tradition - no matter what we do or where we go (when it comes to dude-sports or hobbies or whatever), we get told we don't have to do as well as John or Jake, because we're girls. Positive discrimination is still discrimination, no? I am a GIRL not CRIPPLE. (No offense taken, by the way, just pointing out the redundancy of the argument/logic! ;))

I am sure there is going to be female special forces as soon as one gets up and makes it her case to want to become one (and manage to elbow those aside that wouldn't be as ok with it as you are - cuddos to you for that :))

Beside, on the case of Space Marines - no human male could do that, either. There is a reason they are soaked in androgens and genetically modified! The prepubescent differences between boys and girls are genetically and biologically incredibly close, its largely during (and because of) puberty that our beloved differences appear. So on that account, a female mold is as good as a male mold. Doesn't require Emperor induced intervention to use them instead/as well.

Of course, I just want some female Space Marines because I want some female Space Marines (and have enough ego to think I could make the grade in 40k if I damn well wanted to, hehe). I am not advocating ridiculous 50/50 deals or whatever. But I want the possibility to be there - fine if someone's corner of the universe doesn't sport them, mine does, and trust me, she won't lag behind her male squadmates one bit either (praise the Emperor for genetic cocktails, eh?) :)

(http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/264/4/1/hello_kitty_space_marines_by_kynamarioc-d4ajrz3.jpg)

(http://1d4chan.org/images/a/aa/Female_warhammer_40k_imperium_model_--_100D0212.jpg)

(http://1d4chan.org/images/e/e7/Female_space_marine_warhammer_40k_model_--_Female_Warrior_Gabs.jpg)

Remind me of the first starship troppers movie. One day I will get around reading the book. Well going by that universe their are space marine females. Heck this where the Space Marine concept was stolen. The original book was in the 1950s, so the troopers been out longer it just took awhile for the movie to come out.

That is why I'm so indifferant about woman special forces. I think to lower the standards to allow woman in is an injustice. If a woman can make the grade let her in for heavens sake. My concern is the standards may be to high for a woman to reach. I don't like treating woman like cripples.

I find some of the issue which also the same issue with minorities is that if it benefits you than you fall into the sterotype. If it is negative than you make a fuss. A example may be since you are a woman you stuck doing desk work instead working out in the field which some woman would go ok. No problem with that. When I say field I mean back breaking work. The classic hold the door open for a lady or etc. When you want to say play baseball you can't cause it is a guy sport. Out of all sports I can't immagine why woman and men can't play baseball on the same level.

I for one see people as people. I hate doing things for people cause it takes away from them from actual learning and growing as a person.

However when I say I doubt there are female Ultramarines it's due to the fluff and not my personal opinion. Unless an author that is cannon write in a female ultramine it is going to be assumed there is none.

Sisters of battle comes off as te female answer of being close to space marines. Chapters like space wolves that may be more isolated from terra more than likely would have female marines than planets that's near Terra.

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/264/4/1/hello_kitty_space_marines_by_kynamarioc-d4ajrz3.jpg  (http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/264/4/1/hello_kitty_space_marines_by_kynamarioc-d4ajrz3.jpg)


With all that being said it is your army. If you want Hello Kitty Space Marines than by golly do Hello Kitty Space Marines.

However what your army contains and what is fluff is a differant story.

The following represents my thoughts on portraying female Astartes.

These are Space Marines. If you look closely, you will notice the noble Astartes in these pict-slates are female.
(http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/131/4/6/lion_guard_by_fiend66-d4zc07c.jpg)

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs17/i/2007/223/1/4/Maria_Octavia_by_Greymark.jpg (http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs17/i/2007/223/1/4/Maria_Octavia_by_Greymark.jpg)

These are not Space Marines. If you look closely, you will notice they are blasphemies against the Emperor and good taste, and should be purged:
(http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs6/i/2005/070/f/9/Space_Marine_Illustration_by_dawnbest.jpg)

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs13/f/2007/079/8/7/Blood_Raven_by_kaaskop.jpg

(http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs13/f/2007/079/8/7/Blood_Raven_by_kaaskop.jpg)http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/039/7/b/warhammer_sexy_space_marine_01_by_bluephoenix012-d3930ur.png (http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/039/7/b/warhammer_sexy_space_marine_01_by_bluephoenix012-d3930ur.png)

I cannot see that there will ever be female space marines.

This is because representations of 'grimdark realistic' hyper-masculine transsexual women are unmarketable to the core demographic that plays WH40K. There will never be any official miniatures, so there will never be any official artwork, and so there will never be any emphasis on changing the status quo from where it is now. The idea itself is measurably less silly than failed Space Wolf aspirants mutating into giant wolves. But werewolves, even science fiction werewolves are at least marketable, whereas transsexuals have never been marketable to the same audience that Games Workshop markets WH40K towards.

Just take a good hard look at the current line of Slaanesh Daemons. They've moved on from replacing everything on a female body that isn't tits and ass with something that is capable of disemboweling you, and now they're selling transsexualism as horror.

Quote from: Paradoxrifts on December 15, 2012, 09:18:22 AM

I cannot see that there will ever be female space marines.

This is because representations of 'grimdark realistic' hyper-masculine transsexual women are unmarketable to the core demographic that plays WH40K. There will never be any official miniatures, so there will never be any official artwork, and so there will never be any emphasis on changing the status quo from where it is now. The idea itself is measurably less silly than failed Space Wolf aspirants mutating into giant wolves. But werewolves, even science fiction werewolves are at least marketable, whereas transsexuals have never been marketable to the same audience that Games Workshop markets WH40K towards.

Just take a good hard look at the current line of Slaanesh Daemons. They've moved on from replacing everything on a female body that isn't tits and dyi with something that is capable of disemboweling you, and now they're selling transsexualism as horror.

I resent the way you phrased that, through which, by implication, you suggest I have no value as a customer as it's not 'meant for me anyway, so your ideas/opinions/feelings/notions/wants do not matter (to GWS)'. Heh. I like to think W40k is starting the last years to aim more for its adult audience of whichever gender and sexual orientation (that actually has the money for this hobby) rather than just 14 year old boys...

At any rate, I think you are missing the entire point - not just mine, but especially Isaac's. We're not talking about table top stats or marketing prospects, its a fluff discussion and fluff doesn't preclude it 100%. Whether or not you (or anyone) is grossed out by the idea of more masculine women, really has nothing to do with that. Just because its 'unmarkettable' as you claim, doesn't mean it can't exist in fluff. It never stopped writers on other topics before - how many of the existing chapters can you buy boxes for? the existing IG flavours? The bloody Inquisition and Navy? :)

What I don't understand, is why most anti-female-space-marine proponents appear... 'afraid'... of female Space Marines. As if Space Marines will somehow be less for it. Less masculine? Less serious? Less grimdark? Less brotherlylovy? Less 'Space Marine'? Why are these things the sole property of men (in this case Space Marines)? Because what one basically says is that including a female/woman will degrade their value. It's that bottomline notion that ticks me off about the vast majority of these discussions: that it all becomes somehow less if there is women involved. Its no different than the (fortunately largely extinct) notion that black/dark skinned are less capable than white people. Nobody would dare say 'you're black, so you can't be a Space Marine', hm?

On a completely different topic, concerning what you said about the T&A, I am reminded of Khorne suddenly having a girlfr--- I mean, Queen (and I keep wondering how she and Angron get along... :P). Maybe next, canon will 'find' a document that heretically showed the Emperor had a harem (I wouldn't be surprised...)? Fluff can, does and will change. So saying 'never' is a moot point. W40k has matured a lot the past decade, and that is a GOOD thing. Some of its notions were rather oldfashioned without being charming. Female Space Marines might pop up as suddenly as female Imperial Guard did - although whether or not they will be feminine, is a whole 'nother discussion of course. But then, does that matter to Space Marines? Probably not.

I like to think the Emperor was enlightened in all departments not to be a complete [censored] when it comes to gender issues. That would put a serious blemish on our beloved savior and god. :)

PS. Isaac, the picture of the female DA is awesome! That is exactly what I imagine female Space Marines to be like: serious, down to business and not to be messed with, just like their male counterparts. The picture reminds me a little of my 2nd Captain (Ca)nina Orkbane of the Ultrawolves; although the latter is a bit broader ('eastern european, am I allowed to say that?') in the features still. And dark-haired/tan-skinned (per the chapter's standard). Think "if Horus had a twin sister". ;)

The lore of WH40K is marketing. It has always been about marketing. It will always be about marketing. The sole reason for it's creation was to help sell Games Workshop branded products, and when I interpret it as as marketing material instead of background material for a game that I would like to play I would be straight up lying to you if I told you that I think the company gives a shit about your ideas/opinions/feelings/notions/wants. Their marketing arm will have spent more time this year trying to figure out how to convince mothers that buying their company's products for their sons will not ultimately turn them into basement-dwelling bearded men, then they would've spent figuring out how to sell the same products to female players.   

I do not like lying to people, even if it will mean that people will dislike me for telling them what I feel is the truth. If you do not like being told the truth then I suggest that we bring this conversation to an end.

But if you, Isaac, Wargamer or anybody else wishes to create their own female space marines, I say go for it and go hard. It's been increasingly hard to justify telling people like yourselves that you're messing with the integrity of the game with your personal additions when Games Workshop HQ itself has a long history of being more than willing to chop it all up and change it all around to better suit themselves and line their wallets.

Quote from: Linn Scarlett on December 15, 2012, 02:13:33 PMI like to think W40k is starting the last years to aim more for its adult audience of whichever gender and sexual orientation (that actually has the money for this hobby) rather than just 14 year old boys...

     

I think a big issue with all this is that if they did exist you just wouldnt actually be able to tell that its a female marine away.

The fact that becoming a marine actually changes facial features. That they would be recruiting before women fully developed were there isnt much difference between males and females anyway.

So, they would have massive muscle mass. They would have their faces changed to be pretty similar to the rest of their chapter [or their primarch], they would have deep voices. They would act exactly the same as other marines thanks to mental conditioning. They probably wouldnt even have breasts or not any you could notice thanks to the age of recruitment and the muscle mass.

The only way you could actually tell it was a female marine is if they were naked. So you could have Marines in a Chapter that are female and even close observers wouldnt know as who gets to actually see a marine go to the loo?. In any combat situation they wont come out of their armour.

So whats the point really? they look the same, they act the same, they have the same armour. What does it matter what gender they are?.

The one place were I think it could be interesting is in fluff about aspirants passing the initial tests to be accepted into the chapter to actually be a marine. This even makes sense from a fluff standpoint as at the age humans complete tasks to get the notice of a chapter then boys and girls are not noticeably different in terms of physical ability. So young girls could easily outdo young boys.

Quote from: Paradoxrifts on December 15, 2012, 09:18:22 AM
There will never be any official miniatures, so there will never be any official artwork, and so there will never be any emphasis on changing the status quo from where it is now. The idea itself is measurably less silly than failed Space Wolf aspirants mutating into giant wolves. But werewolves, even science fiction werewolves are at least marketable, whereas transsexuals have never been marketable to the same audience that Games Workshop markets WH40K towards.

1. The hypothetical transsexual female marines in that branch of my theory are only that way because I have to work around the wording of the 'male-only' fluff idiocy that GW put into writing. GW doesn't need such convolutions because they're perfectly able to just retcon the obnoxious line out of the way, in which case non-y-chromsomal space amazons wearing power armor doesn't strike me has having too much of a marketability issue. I too doubt they'll ever do it , but it's just laziness on their part, not difficulty.

2. 40k's universe and lore are patently more than just a market scheme. That may be all that the schmucks up at GW HQ care about its existence these days, but 40k exists as a framework for telling stories and exercising one's imagination as well. I dare you to tell me with a straight face that you believe Dan Abnet, Bill King, or Aaron Dempski-Bowden are just in it for the money. And even if they were, we fans are certainly not, and we have thus collectively made 40k a Setting and a Universe and a Hobby beyond merely shelling out cash for overpriced tiny plastic men.

You say GW will never produce official material or products with female space marines as if this means something; but Games Workshop will never make officially sanctioned 40k material about my Bright Lords, either. Or for any other DIY marine armies, for that matter. I doubt you would say that means we should all just pack up our homebrew chapters and chuck them in the dustbin.

Quote
Just take a good hard look at the current line of Slaanesh Daemons. They've moved on from replacing everything on a female body that isn't tits and dyi with something that is capable of disemboweling you, and now they're selling transsexualism as horror.

I assume you're griping about the ignorant smallmindedness of this, in which case I feel you. But once again, GW's lack of interest/the fanbase's collective ignorance doesn't really have a legitimate bearing on the fluff-soundness of an idea.

---

@ Linn: Right on, Battle-Brotherette. ;)
You should PM/IM me about your DIY chapter sometime. I love reading about and discussing custom chapters, and would love to hear some new tales and offer feedback. Maybe I can swap stories about my Bright Lords, or the Adepta Astartes in Wargamer's Supernovas chapter, in repayment. Meanwhile, have a doodle I drew of one of the female marines in Wargamer's chapter. (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y11/NekArcan/Knightwing/Mytal001.jpg)

My favorite things about the female marine I posted are the following:
*She's not remotely sexualized. She's a space marine with a look of iron determination, a clear aura of "I am about to kick Heretic dyi," and clearly geared and armored for all out war. She is a fighting machine and not a model exhibiting titillatingly-cut power armor themed lingerie.

*She's feminine enough to tell that she's female... If you already knew to look for it. Yet despite this, if one simply showed the image with no context, I wager there's a fair chance the viewer would think it's a male space marine who maybe looks a bit girly with his long hair.

---

Quote from: Arguleon-veq on December 16, 2012, 12:41:54 AM
I think a big issue with all this is that if they did exist you just wouldnt actually be able to tell that its a female marine away.

The fact that becoming a marine actually changes facial features. That they would be recruiting before women fully developed were there isnt much difference between males and females anyway.

So, they would have massive muscle mass. They would have their faces changed to be pretty similar to the rest of their chapter [or their primarch], they would have deep voices. They would act exactly the same as other marines thanks to mental conditioning. They probably wouldnt even have breasts or not any you could notice thanks to the age of recruitment and the muscle mass.

The only way you could actually tell it was a female marine is if they were naked. So you could have Marines in a Chapter that are female and even close observers wouldnt know as who gets to actually see a marine go to the loo?. In any combat situation they wont come out of their armour.

I've always imagined that female Astartes would be exceptionally masculine women, but that if you knew what you were looking for, you'd be able to pick up the subtle hints that they're female from the cast of their features, or perhaps a minutely more slender build than other marines.

Regardless, since the point of justifying female Astartes is distinctly not so that I can create superhumanly sized jiggly bits to admire, I don't see why it matters that female space marines wouldn't have triple F's, hourglass figures, or be likely to win Miss Galaxy 40,000.

Quote
So whats the point really? they look the same, they act the same, they have the same armour. What does it matter what gender they are?

So, say I'm rolling up a Dark Heresy character. A guardswoman. She's not very pretty or curvy, has a military crew cut because she's a soldier, her flak armor is just as uniform and featureless as any other Cadian's, and unless you were hunting around in her underwear drawer it wouldn't immediately jump out at you that she was female.

Would you really tell me therefore that you don't see the point in making my character female, since she looks largely like any other Guardsman, and I should just have made a male character? I rather doubt you would, because I wager you are quite aware it would be silly and smallminded, and serve no constructive purpose in the formation of a character. It would just be arbitrary and restrictive. I turn your question back to you; what does it matter what gender someone's Space Marines are?

Now, just make the jump from flak armor to power armor. Justifying, and wanting to justify, the potential for a female space marine isn't about creating amazonian wank material; it's about wanting to make characters, and chafing under a completely arbitrary, nonsensical, and honestly quite alienating constraint on that imaginative process.

Quote
The one place were I think it could be interesting is in fluff about aspirants passing the initial tests to be accepted into the chapter to actually be a marine. This even makes sense from a fluff standpoint as at the age humans complete tasks to get the notice of a chapter then boys and girls are not noticeably different in terms of physical ability. So young girls could easily outdo young boys.

Yeah, that's one of the points I mention- Not only to debunk the cavemen who still occasionally try to trot out "hurr durr women are physically inferior to men" as an argument against female marines, but because the prepubescent recruitment age actually directly means that the gender-exclusivity of the process has even less of a leg to stand on, because the biological gender differences in pre-adolescent children are so comparatively small.

Depicting women in games such as these is always tough because of the artistic considerations. You don't want moulded breast plates and feminine features? Then why bother pointing out they're women? If they look like men, then for all intents and purposes they ARE men to the average observer, and since you can do naught but observe these imaginary things it doesn't matter does it? Or is making them identical to men just another way to marginalize them? Then again going out of their way to exaggerate the differences isn't helping things either. Peddling some ridiculous over-feminine ideal gets real ugly real quickly. Ultimately there's no right answer.

All of the women I know who play RPGs, AAA titles on their Playstations, Magic Cards, and some might have played 40K all much prefer wildly over sexualized women in the media they consume. As an anecdote a good friend of mine once asked my opinion on which Sylvanas Windrunner statue she should get off of ebay. I looked at the two links she gave me, and gave an opinion largely based the posing of the sculpt- one was far more dynamic and made much better use of negative space. After taking my input into consideration her decision was largely informed by which she thought was sexier- a more overtly sexualized pose with far more revealing clothing (or lack thereof) was what she went with, for precisely that reason. Are all women like this? No, not in the least. I'm sure they're rooted deeply in the minority, but they represent virtually all of the women I know who would be likely prospects for GW wares.

Don't like anecdotal evidence? Let's take video games as an example. Video games are really, in their odd way, a great, shining example of women's successes in equality (well in a few respects, a horrible failure in many others!). More women play video games than men. A lot more. the split is something like 60/40 women to men gamers, or more so (probably higher than that, 2-to-1 is probably a safer estimate). And yet the actual money spent on video games is skewed drastically in the opposite direction. Women account for a tiny percentage of dollars spent on games, I don't remember the number but if memory serves it's less than 20% despite being the majority of the ones playing the games! Why? I honestly don't know. I don't think I've ever heard anyone even attempt, let alone give, a good reason. What I have heard are correlations. Women (for the most part, the outliers like the ones mentioned above buck the trend), don't spend a lot of money on video games. Period. Give them an opportunity to game on the cheap, they'll go for it, but they will very rarely plunk down serious money for video games. (unlike guys, who are more than happy to shell out very large quantities of money for the next big fancy electronic box and the special edition hyper-expensive version of everything)


Computers becoming ubiquitous, consoles becoming entertainment hubs, motion controls doubling for exercise machines, smartphones being constant companions, social media integrating gaming

Your rampant flinging of stereotypes astounds me...

I was aware I am not part of the majority of women that aspire to be like J-Lo her jiggly bits and feel the need to have equally bouncy imaginary avatars and joyride whatever they can get. But don't make it sound like we're all supposed to be like that or we're not normal. That's pretty rude, and a monologue entirely pointless to the discussion I thought this thread would have. Namely one concerning the possibility of fluffy female Space Marines, rather than getting slammed around the ears with marketting and stereotype excuses yet again. Did anyone actually raise an actual discussion point? Like the Y-chromosome theory I came across a while ago (and that Isaac quite neatly worked around), that one always made me frown and think on how to get around that! But I guess having that sort of discussions about this is wishful thinking, even here. :(

Maybe I am not getting it, but I really don't see what half the comments so far have anything to do with the discussion Isaac tried to raise. And that makes me sad, because it was a discussion I was looking forward to have when I saw his post.

Mind you, have no doubt that I voice my opinion and desire often enough in the necessary surroundings, but I don't really expect or need GWS to change models or create new ones. I just wish the 'vast majority' of the W40k flufboy community wouldn't be so horrifically narrow-minded about the idea of female space marines without giving it a serious thought. Its no fun getting your ideas trashed and ridiculed on sight, especially not if you tried hard to make them be fluffy and acceptable.

Anyway, I will not be obnoxiously hypocritical and force-feed female space marines to you all in return. I am sure many corners of the universe and many chapters don't have them, don't know about them or otherwise don't care about them and that is all fine by me. They're there for me in one of my chapters, and I neither raped fluff nor the space-marine concept to have them in there. People slamming it down on sight and telling me 'it cant be because it cant be' just gets to me every time - and yea, Isaac, I'll message you. :)

Although I do fondly remember a certain LB author saying that, no matter what it is, it happened some where, some time, in the vast grimdark of warhammer 40.000! And that statement didn't include a 'bar female Space Marines' clause. Hehe! :)

Hrm, it fondly reminds me that the army I expected to get flak never gets any, unlike my Ultrawolves - teh army in question being my 222nd Catachan Carnotaurs with their female Commissar! Must be the uniform, am I right? And no, she's not slutty, and yes, they take her seriously. *points at the links down below* Port Green tells her story :)

On a modelling pov, isn't it up to the hobbyist whether or not they want to include some female heads onto their marines?

I personally don't give a flying rats arse if GW is only using the fluff of the game as a marketing tool. I'm reading "False Gods" right now, and most of the ideas I have from it don't even required GW kits to do.

Are Female Space Marines plausable? YES!! And that very question was answered with a resoundingly loud YES in the OP. Are they something that MUST be added to the game? No, but that doesn't mean we are not allowed to do it ourselves.
Should people be more opened minded to Female Space Marines? Obviously, because IN REALITY we have several extremely dangerous vocations that in fact have exceptionally trained Female members, so why couldn't/wouldn't a woman become a Space Marine?

---

[edit]
Just remembered this video, which could be useful to the topic at hand
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/true-female-characters

Quote from: Isaac Baraqiel on December 16, 2012, 06:30:42 AM
I assume you're griping about the ignorant smallmindedness of this, in which case I feel you. But once again, GW's lack of interest/the fanbase's collective ignorance doesn't really have a legitimate bearing on the fluff-soundness of an idea.

More of an observation really. I don't spend my life fighting other people's battles, but nevertheless it is what it is.

But neither do I think that any active malice was involved. It was likely the best the creative studio types could come up with when the marketing department called a meeting and told them that having a horrid death machine built around a set of female breasts and hips in the miniature range was making their jobs exceedingly difficult.

So far as the small-mindedness goes, I cannot fault people for not wanting to associate themselves with certain imagery.

A friend of mine recently acquired several large good-quality prints of fantasy artwork that uniformly depict sultry gothic women. The sort of late eighties/early nineties fantasy art that could once ubiquitously associated with weekend market stalls. This had been an unusual choice for him because his standard taste in decor usually runs towards dorky than Porky's, so I asked him about them. It turned out that they had once belonged to a female workmate of his. She had decided that they all had to go, but it was why she had reached this decision that intrigued me. She apparently didn't want people mistaking her for being lesbian anymore, which I have to admit having seen the artwork in question would've been my assumption had I walked into a woman's apartment and seen it hanging there.

Just about everything we choose to surround ourselves with dually functions as a social signifier.  Sometimes we are well aware of just how these signs are being interpreted by others, and just as often we are completely in the dark on how others are interpreting our signals based on their own individual experiences. If you understand this then you will understand what drives people to some pretty strange behaviours. Like going through every daemonette in their collection with greenstuff and making sure that every model has a pair of human breasts, or paint up an entire army of glitter pink Necrons  for no other reason than they're a girl, who likes pink and plays WH40K. Or even write about their own female space marines. :P

Quote from: Isaac Baraqiel on December 16, 2012, 06:30:42 AM
1. The hypothetical transsexual female marines in that branch of my theory are only that way because I have to work around the wording of the 'male-only' fluff idiocy that GW put into writing. GW doesn't need such convolutions because they're perfectly able to just retcon the obnoxious line out of the way, in which case non-y-chromsomal space amazons wearing power armor doesn't strike me has having too much of a marketability issue. I too doubt they'll ever do it , but it's just laziness on their part, not difficulty.

The WH40K aesthetic can be summed up thus, take an otherwise goofy far-fetched idea and then reinterpret that idea in the most realistic and grim way you can possibly think up. With that thought in mind I do think having female space marines that do not resemble hulking metal lockers filled with meat would be a betrayal of the game's core aesthetic. But the actual market for miniatures, artwork and writing depicting these beefy female soldiers is probably not worth the time and effort for Games Workshop to create it themselves.

This is a bit of a between a rock and hard place sort of situation. The game's own take on realism demands the sort of tough, masculine women that the majority of the predominately male player base is none too comfortable in purchasing for themselves.

Meanwhile women who don't understand just exactly what is wrong with women built like female tennis players but who hit like female bodybuilders, when the game already involves so much pulp comic weirdness, and by all reports they go off and play Warmachine.

Quote from: Isaac Baraqiel on December 16, 2012, 06:30:42 AM

Quote from: Arguleon-veq on December 16, 2012, 12:41:54 AM
I think a big issue with all this is that if they did exist you just wouldnt actually be able to tell that its a female marine away.

The fact that becoming a marine actually changes facial features. That they would be recruiting before women fully developed were there isnt much difference between males and females anyway.

So, they would have massive muscle mass. They would have their faces changed to be pretty similar to the rest of their chapter [or their primarch], they would have deep voices. They would act exactly the same as other marines thanks to mental conditioning. They probably wouldnt even have breasts or not any you could notice thanks to the age of recruitment and the muscle mass.

The only way you could actually tell it was a female marine is if they were naked. So you could have Marines in a Chapter that are female and even close observers wouldnt know as who gets to actually see a marine go to the loo?. In any combat situation they wont come out of their armour.

I've always imagined that female Astartes would be exceptionally masculine women, but that if you knew what you were looking for, you'd be able to pick up the subtle hints that they're female from the cast of their features, or perhaps a minutely more slender build than other marines.

Regardless, since the point of justifying female Astartes is distinctly not so that I can create superhumanly sized jiggly bits to admire, I don't see why it matters that female space marines wouldn't have triple F's, hourglass figures, or be likely to win Miss Galaxy 40,000.

Quote
So whats the point really? they look the same, they act the same, they have the same armour. What does it matter what gender they are?

So, say I'm rolling up a Dark Heresy character. A guardswoman. She's not very pretty or curvy, has a military crew cut because she's a soldier, her flak armor is just as uniform and featureless as any other Cadian's, and unless you were hunting around in her underwear drawer it wouldn't immediately jump out at you that she was female.

Would you really tell me therefore that you don't see the point in making my character female, since she looks largely like any other Guardsman, and I should just have made a male character? I rather doubt you would, because I wager you are quite aware it would be silly and smallminded, and serve no constructive purpose in the formation of a character. It would just be arbitrary and restrictive. I turn your question back to you; what does it matter what gender someone's Space Marines are?

Now, just make the jump from flak armor to power armor. Justifying, and wanting to justify, the potential for a female space marine isn't about creating amazonian wank material; it's about wanting to make characters, and chafing under a completely arbitrary, nonsensical, and honestly quite alienating constraint on that imaginative process.

Quote
The one place were I think it could be interesting is in fluff about aspirants passing the initial tests to be accepted into the chapter to actually be a marine. This even makes sense from a fluff standpoint as at the age humans complete tasks to get the notice of a chapter then boys and girls are not noticeably different in terms of physical ability. So young girls could easily outdo young boys.

Yeah, that's one of the points I mention- Not only to debunk the cavemen who still occasionally try to trot out "hurr durr women are physically inferior to men" as an argument against female marines, but because the prepubescent recruitment age actually directly means that the gender-exclusivity of the process has even less of a leg to stand on, because the biological gender differences in pre-adolescent children are so comparatively small.

The whole guardsman/woman comparison is rediculous. You yourself have been arguing against the whole 'Sisters are women Marines' arguement because Marines are NOT normal, they are barely even human. This is the same.

You seem seriously defensive and agressive about something I am actually agreeing with you on. You say you want female marines and argue that you dont want to make them very girly and that your just justifying it as possible but then when I point out that there would be no difference between a male and female marine you talk about how you dont want them having massive tits. Nobody is saying you want them like that.

I think there is some scope for it and lots of interesting fluff around why a chapter would have to resort to it and the whole recruitment process but I think thats were it ends because marines are not really human so a female marine would be no more a woman than a male is man. I dont think there would be anything remotely femenine in their look or attitude. They are not people anymore, they are space marines.

This is totally different to a guardswoman who is still a normal woman no matter what she looks like.

I dont think there would be anything wrong with having an RPG female marine character especially as you can do some really interesting back story on her but besides the back story it wouldnt make any difference at all in how they are during the actual RPG compared to a regular battle brother as they would look and act the same as any male marine. The marines themselves probably wouldnt even make a distinction, I think they would still be called battle brothers, that they would become just another space marine not a man or a woman.

In existing fluff its not like marines treat men any differently to women. To a Marine they are just human, they dont care if they men or women because they are not Marines. They just see them as human.

I think the fact that you get so defensive about it kind of points out that you do want your female marines to be pretty femenine. Which is far more implausible than actually having female marines.

I'm going to try and add some outside of hobby opinion on this. Yes its from my GF, but that shouldn't really change much.

To her, the entire hobby is just a silly game played by men and Space Marines don't sound that appealing. I then asked her what she would think if Space Marines (previously stated in our convo as being exclusively male) included Female Marines. Her response was it sounded more plausable. Why should an army exclude an entire gender, especialy when the recruitment process already has a low output of battle ready astartes? What if a planet has a higher proportion of combat ready women. Would that planet be completely ignored by a recruitment vessel? She even went on to say that if the game setting was more male/female even, that she may even be interested in joining the hobby (though she still hates GW).

I then continued the convo, explaining reasons why people look down on the idea, and she did agree on some points. If you want a strong army, men usually are a better option, but then I countered with points about the recruitment process, and how the differences between young girls and boys, means choosing one over the other is pointless, as they're very close physically, and depending on which planet you recruit, close in terms of skill and ability.

Her opinion on the modeling side, is that yes the torso of the Power Armour would need to be modified, but not to the extant of needing breasts as part of the armour.

Discussing the stance on Marketing, it could actually prove BENEFICIAL to GW if they did include Female Space Marines, as they near out-right double their target audience. Some women already play Warhammer, why not advertise to interst more?

To continue saying that Space Marines should be exclusively male, is simply round-about way of saying Men are better then women, which I hope Society has the good sense to see as a foolish idea.

That's code for she still won't play your silly game, but she'll think slightly less of it. Just so you know, Narric. :P

::EDIT:: Here's an example.. "Honey, you know I'd love to go along with you to your back-to-back Twilight Saga marathon and sit through all five movies, but you know I just can't tolerate how Stephanie Meyers misrepresents European folklore."

Two things that I don't think have been covered really:

1) Introducing females Astartes would require changes to the recruitment and development procedures of the Astartes. The Imperium doesn't like changing things unless it has no other option. So what forced this change?

2) The creation of the Astartes is a process 10 millennia old, created by the Emperor himself, and even he didn't get it entirely right, in some cases he got it horribly wrong. Any change to that process could, and almost certainly would, have horrifying ramifications for the candidates.

Quote from: Warmaster Russ on December 16, 2012, 03:31:16 PM
Two things that I don't think have been covered really:

1) Introducing females Astartes would require changes to the recruitment and development procedures of the Astartes. The Imperium doesn't like changing things unless it has no other option. So what forced this change?

2) The creation of the Astartes is a process 10 millennia old, created by the Emperor himself, and even he didn't get it entirely right, in some cases he got it horribly wrong. Any change to that process could, and almost certainly would, have horrifying ramifications for the candidates.

I have one response to both points.

Why are we assuming that the system needs changing? As has been stated, GW can change fluff to meet their own requirements (Grey Knights anyone?) and what is there to say that Female Marines haven't already occured?

Reading the OP, you would see that the transformation process only needs a small amount of tweaking, rather then a complete overhaul.

I also don't believe that every single variant of Land Raider, Baneblade, Rhino Chassis'd or Chimera chassis'd, was born 100% out of necessity. Some may have been experimentations that found a niche use on the battle. Can we really say that the vehicles that we can field in our games are even 10% of what the Imperium even has at disposal? But that is getting off-topic.

Quote from: Narric of 4th Sphere on December 16, 2012, 03:42:35 PM
Why are we assuming that the system needs changing? As has been stated, GW can change fluff to meet their own requirements (Grey Knights anyone?) and what is there to say that Female Marines haven't already occured?

Reading the OP, you would see that the transformation process only needs a small amount of tweaking, rather then a complete overhaul.

I also don't believe that every single variant of Land Raider, Baneblade, Rhino Chassis'd or Chimera chassis'd, was born 100% out of necessity. Some may have been experimentations that found a niche use on the battle. Can we really say that the vehicles that we can field in our games are even 10% of what the Imperium even has at disposal? But that is getting off-topic.

1) Because if they existed already, they'd be mentioned somewhere. Even if they were shunned afterwards, or claimed to never have existed, there would be mention of them. Also, even "minor tweaks" to such a delicate process could prove catastrophic. the process wasn't changed from the first Legions, but there were still some fairly serious issues there for some Legions.

2) Most, if not all, of those which deviate from the STC would have been made from necessity, from someone desperately trying to survive and packing whatever weapons they had onto the nearest tank. A couple may not be born from this, but hey, Forgeworld has to have some overpowered vehicles to release, otherwise how else could they make bucketloads of money? :P

Quote from: Warmaster Russ on December 16, 2012, 03:31:16 PM
Two things that I don't think have been covered really:

1) Introducing females Astartes would require changes to the recruitment and development procedures of the Astartes. The Imperium doesn't like changing things unless it has no other option. So what forced this change?

2) The creation of the Astartes is a process 10 millennia old, created by the Emperor himself, and even he didn't get it entirely right, in some cases he got it horribly wrong. Any change to that process could, and almost certainly would, have horrifying ramifications for the candidates.

1. The Imperium as a whole advocates by majority a status quo, because its the Emperor's empire and we all like to think how it is now is how he meant it so we cling to keeping it that way. Meanwhile, in the books and other fluff 'in-universe' situations forces the black and white ideals of the Imperium in all sorts of shapes and wrinkles in order to win/makeitwork/survive etc.
My Ultrawolves chapter wound up having a minority of biologically female Space Marines among them (long story short) due to desperate recruitment alternatives. Their homeworld is gone, they're fleet based and always on the move. They take anyone who survives the process, because they don't have the luxury to be picky about it and discard 50% of potential recruits out of hand. :) In-universe, the whole 'no change' is mildly self-dilusional, I think. Take a look at the Inquisition's opinion on maintaining the status quo alone! :P

2. Trial and error, my friend, trial and error. Including female aspirants is, on a win-lose level, in the end pure gain. It doesn't increase the fail rate of male ones, just the gain of getting an extra noviate out of there every once in a while. That, and if you have no choice, you have no choice. That or chapter extinction? Hm. :)

Quote from: Lord Sotek on December 16, 2012, 06:30:42 AM

Quote from: Paradoxrifts on December 15, 2012, 09:18:22 AM
There will never be any official miniatures, so there will never be any official artwork, and so there will never be any emphasis on changing the status quo from where it is now. The idea itself is measurably less silly than failed Space Wolf aspirants mutating into giant wolves. But werewolves, even science fiction werewolves are at least marketable, whereas transsexuals have never been marketable to the same audience that Games Workshop markets WH40K towards.

1. The hypothetical transsexual female marines in that branch of my theory are only that way because I have to work around the wording of the 'male-only' fluff idiocy that GW put into writing. GW doesn't need such convolutions because they're perfectly able to just retcon the obnoxious line out of the way, in which case non-y-chromsomal space amazons wearing power armor doesn't strike me has having too much of a marketability issue. I too doubt they'll ever do it , but it's just laziness on their part, not difficulty.

2. 40k's universe and lore are patently more than just a market scheme. That may be all that the schmucks up at GW HQ care about its existence these days, but 40k exists as a framework for telling stories and exercising one's imagination as well. I dare you to tell me with a straight face that you believe Dan Abnet, Bill King, or Aaron Dempski-Bowden are just in it for the money. And even if they were, we fans are certainly not, and we have thus collectively made 40k a Setting and a Universe and a Hobby beyond merely shelling out cash for overpriced tiny plastic men.

You say GW will never produce official material or products with female space marines as if this means something; but Games Workshop will never make officially sanctioned 40k material about my Bright Lords, either. Or for any other DIY marine armies, for that matter. I doubt you would say that means we should all just pack up our homebrew chapters and chuck them in the dustbin.

Quote
Just take a good hard look at the current line of Slaanesh Daemons. They've moved on from replacing everything on a female body that isn't tits and dyi with something that is capable of disemboweling you, and now they're selling transsexualism as horror.

I assume you're griping about the ignorant smallmindedness of this, in which case I feel you. But once again, GW's lack of interest/the fanbase's collective ignorance doesn't really have a legitimate bearing on the fluff-soundness of an idea.

---

@ Linn: Right on, Battle-Brotherette. ;)
You should PM/IM me about your DIY chapter sometime. I love reading about and discussing custom chapters, and would love to hear some new tales and offer feedback. Maybe I can swap stories about my Bright Lords, or the Adepta Astartes in Wargamer's Supernovas chapter, in repayment. Meanwhile, have a doodle I drew of one of the female marines in Wargamer's chapter. (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y11/NekArcan/Knightwing/Mytal001.jpg)

My favorite things about the female marine I posted are the following:
*She's not remotely sexualized. She's a space marine with a look of iron determination, a clear aura of "I am about to kick Heretic dyi," and clearly geared and armored for all out war. She is a fighting machine and not a model exhibiting titillatingly-cut power armor themed cheap lingeries (http://www.robustbuy.com/womens-clothes-lingerie-sets-c-1083_1085_1088.html)

*She's feminine enough to tell that she's female... If you already knew to look for it. Yet despite this, if one simply showed the image with no context, I wager there's a fair chance the viewer would think it's a male space marine who maybe looks a bit girly with his long hair.

---

Quote from: Arguleon-veq on December 16, 2012, 12:41:54 AM
I think a big issue with all this is that if they did exist you just wouldnt actually be able to tell that its a female marine away.

The fact that becoming a marine actually changes facial features. That they would be recruiting before women fully developed were there isnt much difference between males and females anyway.

So, they would have massive muscle mass. They would have their faces changed to be pretty similar to the rest of their chapter [or their primarch], they would have deep voices. They would act exactly the same as other marines thanks to mental conditioning. They probably wouldnt even have breasts or not any you could notice thanks to the age of recruitment and the muscle mass.

The only way you could actually tell it was a female marine is if they were naked. So you could have Marines in a Chapter that are female and even close observers wouldnt know as who gets to actually see a marine go to the loo?. In any combat situation they wont come out of their armour.

I've always imagined that female Astartes would be exceptionally masculine women, but that if you knew what you were looking for, you'd be able to pick up the subtle hints that they're female from the cast of their features, or perhaps a minutely more slender build than other marines.

Regardless, since the point of justifying female Astartes is distinctly not so that I can create superhumanly sized jiggly bits to admire, I don't see why it matters that female space marines wouldn't have triple F's, hourglass figures, or be likely to win Miss Galaxy 40,000.

Quote
So whats the point really? they look the same, they act the same, they have the same armour. What does it matter what gender they are?

So, say I'm rolling up a Dark Heresy character. A guardswoman. She's not very pretty or curvy, has a military crew cut because she's a soldier, her flak armor is just as uniform and featureless as any other Cadian's, and unless you were hunting around in her underwear drawer it wouldn't immediately jump out at you that she was female.

Would you really tell me therefore that you don't see the point in making my character female, since she looks largely like any other Guardsman, and I should just have made a male character? I rather doubt you would, because I wager you are quite aware it would be silly and smallminded, and serve no constructive purpose in the formation of a character. It would just be arbitrary and restrictive. I turn your question back to you; what does it matter what gender someone's Space Marines are?

Now, just make the jump from flak armor to power armor. Justifying, and wanting to justify, the potential for a female space marine isn't about creating amazonian wank material; it's about wanting to make characters, and chafing under a completely arbitrary, nonsensical, and honestly quite alienating constraint on that imaginative process.

Quote
The one place were I think it could be interesting is in fluff about aspirants passing the initial tests to be accepted into the chapter to actually be a marine. This even makes sense from a fluff standpoint as at the age humans complete tasks to get the notice of a chapter then boys and girls are not noticeably different in terms of physical ability. So young girls could easily outdo young boys.

Yeah, that's one of the points I mention- Not only to debunk the cavemen who still occasionally try to trot out "hurr durr women are physically inferior to men" as an argument against female marines, but because the prepubescent recruitment age actually directly means that the gender-exclusivity of the process has even less of a leg to stand on, because the biological gender differences in pre-adolescent children are so comparatively small.

This is quite well discussed matter and have learned something interesting form here.

Quote from: Homew1963 on April 23, 2013, 09:47:23 PM
This is quite well discussed matter and have learned something interesting form here.

First of all, welcome to the forums :). While not compulsory, I reccommend you introduce yourself here (http://secondsphere.org/index.php?board=14.0).

Secondly though, while I am glad to hear you found this discussion interesting, I believe it is against the forum rules to post on a thread that is more than a couple of months old unless you have something new to add. I highly doubt you'll get into trouble for it (this is only your first post, after all), but it's something to bear in mind for future reference. The forum rules are here (http://secondsphere.org/index.php?topic=1.0); I advise you take a quick look at them to avoid accidentally breaking them again ;).

Farewell.

But... but Mabbz! Our amazing dissection of the material! ;)

However, if we actually start discussing again, and adding more arguments, that WOULD be allowed, wouldn't it?

Quote from: LinnScarlett on May 03, 2013, 11:24:52 PM
But... but Mabbz! Our amazing dissection of the material! ;)

However, if we actually start discussing again, and adding more arguments, that WOULD be allowed, wouldn't it?

Here's the rule:

QuotePlease don't bump up old threads - if they're over a month old (for example, although that timing isn't set in stone) then it's generally frowned upon to bump up the thread - we call this 'threadomancy' (thread necromancy). Only do this if you have something really very useful to add to the thread.

In other words, yes I'm fairly sure that would be allowed.