I have been looking at lots of CSM lists, trying to find a single combination that stands out to me as exceptional and fluffy, and I just can't. Im not looking for powergamy lists, but just lists that have lots of fun to use fluffy units that I like, and I have having a hell of a time picking them because honestly, I like almost all of them!
Everything seems fun to play and fluffy in the right places. Nothing seems too over powered or unneeded. And I anm really strugging to make lists simply because I have too much to choose from that I want to use.
Anyone else finding this? The CSM dex is in my mind, on of the best all round codexes I have seen in a long time.
Personally speaking, I thought that of the previous codex. And from what I've seen of the latest (quick glimpses when talking to a young lad about Lightning Claws), there is more choice.
Are Players spoilt for choice? most likely, but if you have a set theme or playstyle in mind, then whats the problem?
The issue arises in that I want to try lots of things. My Tau have basicly 1 list. However I find lots of ways to make a fun playable army that I would enjoy. I have themes in mind and then I suddenly think "Oh! What about adding X!" then I end up on a tangent and I have to start eliminating things. There are no obvious choices other than Nurgle Obliterators I think. And while that is a good thing. It makes list writing really tricky.
I haven't actually read the CSM codex, but I have played against it and DAMN! They have a lot of choices. Perhaps there aren't any more unit options in the codex, but with four different options for blessings or whatever (The buffs from your god of choice) it means they automatically have a kickass option no matter what they want to do. It's pretty cool. (Not over-powered, though, just cool.)
There are options up the ying yang for just about everything. Even the basic CSM squads can be insanely cheap or super expensive.
From all the positive noises I hear around me (and on here just reading the comments of you two), perhaps this Codex Of Awesome is the start of a very good edition of codexi all around? Would be nice, wouldn't it? The CSM codex sure seems a good kick-off of 6th. Hope they keep it up on other releases too.
Would make chosing an army and list even a bigger hell than it already can be though. Hehe. I keep jumping around with what I like and want to play already. :P
I really like it as a generally well balanced Codex.
There are some overpowered choices although even there you have some choices as most are in the Fast Attack slots [Bikers and Helldrakes].
I think its great that you have genuine choices to make between almost of the troop choices [and possible troop choices]. Every one of them has things about them that make them very appealing for both fluff and gaming reasons.
I think the main problem is that because a lot of the different cult units are all pretty cool that its difficult to stick to a mono god list and you will get some whiney players complaining about it, but just ignore them and play what you think is fun.
There are very few complete duds in the book although I think Warp Talons are pretty poor. Even the HQ choices are all very tempting besides the Daemon Prince.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on December 18, 2012, 09:31:14 PM
I think the main problem is that because a lot of the different cult units are all pretty cool that its difficult to stick to a mono god list and you will get some whiney players complaining about it, but just ignore them and play what you think is fun.
When I get around to it, I fear I'll go with 'Chaos Undecided' :P
And just run with whatever is fun regardless of god. If Abaddon gets to champion them all... thensocanI!
Fluff-wise, I am sure there's creative ways to have multiple gods featuring, especially in a larger force.
I have totally lost the ability to stay loyal to Tzeentch. I have Ahriman, and I love my Thousand Sons, but a Nurgle Warpsmith and Obliterators, Slaaneshi Raptors and basic CSMs are all going to be common sights in my army unless I have to be loyal for whatever reason.
Warp Talons, I am very torn on. If you can make them work, and give them a Mark of Slaanesh, they are going to walk through any non TEQ unit with impunity. And they can meet the Eldar on their on terms speed wise. It's just making them survive long enough to get there because they cannot assault after deep striking. If they could I would happily pay an extra 30 points for the 5 man unit.
Bikers, I wouldn't say are overpowered, but undercosted. Heldrakes, I havnt used but I have heard they can be nasty, but then so can all fliers.
HQ is currently drawing all my attention. I have Ahriman, Warpsmith and a Deamon Prince from last edition when they were good, I want Lucius, Abbadon, Typhus and Kharne aswell though.
The new chaos book is certainly something of a renaissance for chaos. The book has been brought into line in such a way as maximize effectiveness and fun. One of the reasons why I think the new chaos book has been so well received is that its fun to play against, which is a bit of a novel concept for a lot of the new books.
I'm a big fan of the degree of variety in the new Chaos codex. I absolutely hate hate hated the crippling paring down of options you saw in some 5th and especially 4th edition 'dexes compared to their previous iterations.
The more options I have, the more ability I have to enjoy using the codex to represent something or create a force that works in a way its authors didn't necessarily think of. If everything's super constrained, (Cough, DA dex!) it feels like the tabletop equivalent of having to write only using someone else's 40k fan material.
With the new Chaos dex, I can do straight up old school black legion style force, marines everywhere around a big towering nasty scary Chaos Lord. I can do Lost and the Damned. I can go Specific Deity Cult Themed. I can field one of the proper Traitor Legions in their full, blighted glory for the Long War; or I can field a band of more recent renegades, or a splinter warband.
I can represent an idea as specific as Da'Kath's Chosen, a cadre of elite Chaos Marine warriors with a philosophy of combining flesh, spirit, and steel as one; backed by their brainwashed militia fodder and the daemon-engine creations of their powerful daemonologist-technologist leader. And which I came up with as a concept before I had any inkling of a new Codex with Warpsmiths and Forgefiends. Last codex, even the 3.5e one? Not really so much.
Our hobby community spends a lot of time discussing whether or not something's a sin in 40k, but I'll go out on a limb for once and say confidently that viable customizability is a virtue, and 6th ed Chaos has it in spades.
It's good to read a thread praising a codex :).
I'm pretty much in agreement with you all here, in the sense that I too think that the book is a good one. Most of the choices are viable to a reasonably wide extent, and they've done a good job with making the HQ section, in particular, more dynamic, so that the Daemon Prince is no longer a default choice, which is good news for me, as I don't field one.
The only slight fly in the ointment is that Thousand Sons still seem a bit off to me in terms of how their rules work, but I still think that they are better off than they used to be, so I certainly don't find this as problematic as some.
Finally, the two Chaos Spawn I purchased for appearance sake back in fifth edition actually now have a use, so I may try them out properly one of these days.
Its strange that on DeviantART, I've seen comments that say the new codex is "Lackluster"
That just sounds like they can't be bothered to change, or they WANTED some OP and ridiculous codex material.
I find the codex to be well made in every way. Rules. Fluff. Art. Even the quality of the materials used.
@Linn, what do you mean about the Thousand Sons?
I think one of the issues is that it is not a very powerful codex.
My circle was hoping that it would be an "anti-GK" codex that was very strong against elite-type Imperials (perhaps even bringing assault back as a viable option), but being vulnerable to fliers or hordes, creating a balance of some type.
The fact that tactically, it still isn't quite there, is kind of frustrating on a certain level.
You could see that if some models had "slightly" better rules than they would be much better at their job, and they do suffer from having no really useful builds that are thematic and also will let you crush your opponent, while needing skill and technique that would make it fail utterly if not practiced well.
So, yes, I do like the book. I've seen it, read it, and think it's a good mid-tier Codex that brings up a lot of balance. But I'm a bit sad that it will not be the destroyer of GK's like I had hoped...
Best,
-BT
BT, isn't it a good thing that the codex isn't OP?
Now players will actually challenged. They'll need to develope their own tactics. No longer just cookie-cutter their way around.
Are you seriously wanting pratically every new player and their dad, jumping onto the Chaos band-wagon, until the next new 40k Codex? I can safely assume you don't. Now, we'll see more people who actaully enjoy the army, for the army itself, not just for wanting to beat their opponent on turn 2.
Going hand in hand with the current decline of Grey Knight players (and posibly power-gamers in general), this could lead to games becoming fun again, both for new and old players.
Still think the Chaos Codex should be OP and/or anti-Grey Knight?
Perhaps I misspoke/typed.
I don't want an OP Codex.
I would like a Codex that better let you melt the hearts out of Marines though.
The problem with making "bad guy" Codicies that are loyal to the fluff is that most of the time, the Imperium wins.
But if you read the Chaos fluff, where Chaos does and definitively win, they do so by a landslide.
And that's what I was hoping you could bring out.
And you... kind of can. You can make a choppy lord that will brutalize GKs.
You can make a lot of options that are fun and exciting.
But, it's not as... specialized as I was personally hoping.
I was hoping to see units that had clear modes for destroying power armor, and well...
They kind of do, but not too well.
So, yes, I am glad they are not OP. Do I wish they could murder GKs and the like THAT much more... Well... yes :)
I would trade the Helldrake for it :)
Best,
-BT
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 19, 2012, 02:06:24 PM
@Linn, what do you mean about the Thousand Sons?
Don't you mean Isi, I know I am blond and a girl and all that like Isi's avatar, but I think you got us mixed there! :)
Quote from: BigToof on December 19, 2012, 04:00:28 PM
I don't want an OP Codex.
I would like a Codex that better let you melt the hearts out of Marines though.
The problem with making "bad guy" Codicies that are loyal to the fluff is that most of the time, the Imperium wins.
Hm. Mind me, but I think it would be 'stupid' if they let fluff matter in THAT regard. I mean, the codexi are rule books for a game, everybody should have equal chances no matter that the Imperium manages to beat the snot out of Abaddon every odd quarter century. I agree with BT there, it's silly if something is OP but sometimes stuff does work out that way without any deliberate intention (we so hope), and they (GWS) just like any other game-platform needs time to bring out the proverbial patch (and make sure they don't shoot the OP in the knees too hard while at it).
On the flip-side, cookiecutter army builds are lame. If there is only one viable way to built army X, then why bother having the other sections anyway? I am really pleased hearing that the CSM codix is more about 'what you like/want to do' than about 'if you don't take X you will suck beyond recognition'. Creativity and fun for the win, and all that!
I need to get my hands on that thing for a more indepth browse. I am quite curious about the HQ new set of rules. I've always been incriminatingly fond of Abaddon... Would be nice to be able to properly employ the guy without getting stickled Failbaddon. :facepalm001:
Yeah, I read your reply and then his and then thought you said it. My bad. *hangs head*
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 19, 2012, 06:12:39 PM
Yeah, I read your reply and then his and then thought you said it. My bad. *hangs head*
Revenge of the Avatar, I suppose. Hehe. I am quite looking forward to digging into the CSM codex, I've been sitting on some Black Legion and Alpha Legion for ages now, gathering up the courage to make the jump... *eyes the cliff edge*
I think Undivided is definatly the way to go with this edition. It give you so many complimentary boosts. I had Nurgle Terminators in CC last night and they were just taking the hits like pros. 4 rounds that combat lasted. Against other terminators.
Mhm, Undecided in my case - but yea, its going to be difficult to resist temptation and stick to a single flavour for sure. Sounds like your Nurdudes did well then!
Actually Chaos Space Marines are probably the best army for dealing with power armour. Baleflamers and the Burning Brand just brutalise MEQ's.
I havent had as much time as I'd like to go through it (that is with a fine toothed comb), but a lot of it I rather like. My one issue is I haven't yet found a lot of satisfactory fluffy compliments to hordes of cultists for a Lost and Damned/Cultist army to really round out some of their weaknesses. Though, that's not really counting the option for allies
I think most people run Cultists with Dark Apostles.
I am very tempted to run a twin Smith Deamon Engine based list. The Warpsmith has definatly become a stand out unit for me.
Mark of Nurgle, Aura of Dark Glory and Burning Brand. Maybe some extra small bits if I have some points left over.
I started my Worldeaters back in codex 3.0, so my marines have seen 4 dexs over the years. This one has by far the most unique in the different units we can pick out. Heldrakes, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Cultists and warp talons.
If I were to rank the 4 codexs, I would rank this one probably 2nd or 3rd. Mostly because my memories of codex 3.0 are bit hazy i remember it being a fun dex. It has given us a lot of choice, but lacks the Legion rules that i loved with 3.5. But i also realized that 3.5 codex was broken, as much as the GK dex is broken now.
Maybe someday we will get our legion rules, but i'm happy with the tools we got
I think I like that I can build my legion up in a fluffy way without a preset restraint though. I wouldnt mind a few little things I guess, but Marks and Icons allow for that do they not?
A lot of people (not me tho) are bent out of shape over the fact that Berzerkers have a higher WS then they're counter parts (Terminators, Chosen, Raptors), and they're not fearless. Icon can fix the furious charge question. Or how plague marines can get feel no pain but they're lords can't. Its just the little things that seem get under people skin.
Bezerkers having a higher WS makes sense though, seeing as it is pretty much all they do. I would even be happy with a trade off to make them BS3.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 19, 2012, 01:04:07 AM
I have totally lost the ability to stay loyal to Tzeentch. I have Ahriman, and I love my Thousand Sons, but a Nurgle Warpsmith and Obliterators, Slaaneshi Raptors and basic CSMs are all going to be common sights in my army unless I have to be loyal for whatever reason.
Warp Talons, I am very torn on. If you can make them work, and give them a Mark of Slaanesh, they are going to walk through any non TEQ unit with impunity. And they can meet the Eldar on their on terms speed wise. It's just making them survive long enough to get there because they cannot assault after deep striking. If they could I would happily pay an extra 30 points for the 5 man unit.
Bikers, I wouldn't say are overpowered, but undercosted. Heldrakes, I havnt used but I have heard they can be nasty, but then so can all fliers.
HQ is currently drawing all my attention. I have Ahriman, Warpsmith and a Deamon Prince from last edition when they were good, I want Lucius, Abbadon, Typhus and Kharne aswell though.
Cheap bikes that can be tougness 6 with a +5 or +4 cover save when they move is not overpowered at all.
All bikes get a 5 or 4+ cover save when they move. That is not an issue of Chaos Bikes but all bikes in general. They are no more powerful than any other bike in the game weapon wise and you pay more for the extra toughness. Like you always have. All bike are +1 to toughness as it is, so a further plus one, while better, is at a cost.
Undercosted. Not overpowered.
Undercosted is overpowered. If Marines were 8 points each, they would be overpowered. They are overpowered because you can take so many without using a large part of your points allowance.
A unit were every stat is 8 wouldnt be overpowered if it was 2000 points.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on December 20, 2012, 11:53:03 PM
Undercosted is overpowered. If Marines were 8 points each, they would be overpowered. They are overpowered because you can take so many without using a large part of your points allowance.
A unit were every stat is 8 wouldnt be overpowered if it was 2000 points.
Which is the reason why they are over powered. You have to compare said point cost of their bikes to other bike armies. Also throw in icons they are much better than I initially thought.
I thought they was ok until i went agaimst them a few times and I went wtf due to how much they costed and that was before we realized all bikes get the +5 save for just moving.
It turns a Nurgle Lord with mark of Nurgle almost immune to instant death at a really cheap cost. Only instant death weapons like a force weapon can kill him out right, and with a +4 invulneable that means instead of needing 2 strength 10 wounds to kill him outright I now need 6.
Nurgle or Khorne bikes are very annoying to deal with in that codex. The Tzeentch is a waste unless you want them in combat and Slaneesh is ok with the extra initiative, but it is the cheap cost of bike and the icon which make them good.
Quote from: Brassclaw on December 20, 2012, 09:29:50 PM
A lot of people (not me tho) are bent out of shape over the fact that Berzerkers have a higher WS then they're counter parts (Terminators, Chosen, Raptors), and they're not fearless. Icon can fix the furious charge question. Or how plague marines can get feel no pain but they're lords can't. Its just the little things that seem get under people skin.
I did hear (still didn't read the CSM) that different factions are a tiny point stronger in different suits, and that comparing 'like to like' might show differences but that those are 'made up for' in other units' departments? I think people get bend out of shape because stuff isn't identical, and they forget to look at the bigger picture. Admittedly, this is an opinion all on hearsay so I don't know if this is the case with the CSM, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is and people are just not seeing it (or neglecting to count their chosen flavour being slightly strong in another suit over all its likes as their "+").
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on December 20, 2012, 11:53:03 PM
Undercosted is overpowered. If Marines were 8 points each, they would be overpowered. They are overpowered because you can take so many without using a large part of your points allowance.
A unit were every stat is 8 wouldnt be overpowered if it was 2000 points.
I disagree. Undercosted means something is slightly cheap, without being a 'complete' game breaker for the opponent by being an unstoppable force at its term level. Overpowered simply breaks the game because on its term level there is nothing you can even begin to do about it.
Sure, one blends into the extreme of the other, but in a normal sense to me its two different things. It's all in the nuances. :)
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on December 20, 2012, 11:53:03 PM
Undercosted is overpowered. If Marines were 8 points each, they would be overpowered. They are overpowered because you can take so many without using a large part of your points allowance.
A unit were every stat is 8 wouldnt be overpowered if it was 2000 points.
I disagree. Undercosted means something is slightly cheap, without being a 'complete' game breaker for the opponent by being an unstoppable force at its term level. Overpowered simply breaks the game because on its term level there is nothing you can even begin to do about it.
Sure, one blends into the extreme of the other, but in a normal sense to me its two different things. It's all in the nuances. :)
[/quote]
In my gamming experance nothing is over powered in 40k. There is always something that can beat what ever unit someone decides to through out. The only unit I can recall that fits that category was the seer councils of old, even than they could be beaten.
Now if for example I run a toughness 8 Wraithlord against all strength 3 guardsman than that would fit what some say is ovepowered. the sad thing is the Wraithlord is not overpowered, may be better than some units, but not overpowered.
The problem lies in producing a balance list with all the armies and tricks in mind. If you do not do this than you will think that unbeatable unit is over pwoered.
Than again genestealers fom 3rd and 4th was pretty bad. I never got wiped from them, but I wiped 1k marines with only 250 points worth of stealers before. It was a 4 way game which i split 3 ways and was able to beat 3k pts with 1k points. not to mention they quickly called a truce to jump me.
that being said I never fell prey to the unit because I ran them and knew how they played, also I made sure it was rather hard to consolidate into my next unit after combat.
I like the term under costed, due to some things are simply under costed compared to other units in the game and even in their own book.
A very good example is the Flamer of Tzeentch, before they changed it from last edition it was under costed for what it does. x points for the breath of chaos is a fair and balanced cost, but 5 points for a 2 hit jetpack tougness and strength four model with a +4 invulnerable save is very under costed. What other army can get that for only 5 points. Not to mention a three hit strength four ap four wean that uses a marine bs thrown in for free. Than 6th come a long and now the unit is 7 points cheaper than the actual upgrade of the weapon, so cheap in fact I almost can run five of them instead of three, and throw in an extra wound, plus lower their invulnerable save to +4 for balance.
However Flamers of tzeentch is not over powered simply due to the many things that can go wrong to get them to where you need them. I would say Daemons weakness in armies that can put on a ton of wounds and have many models. Aginst armies of 50-80 models they do really well, but against 200+ models they start to have problems. Which the flamers fall pray to weapons like flamers.
That being said I would say Flamers of tzeentch is a bit cheezy to use and are very under coasted for what they do. keep in mind not to many Daemon units are cheap and a few are very over coasted. Now if the whole army was like this who would play against something like that. However it's one of a few units that sing i am the big block of cheese in the army. Unlike Grey Knights who get strength seven assault cannons army wide at 1/4 of the cost of an assault cannon and can fire as an assault weapon on top of that.
The bikes are cheezy because of the cost and the amount that can be thrown upon you.
is the bike over powered? No.
Are they cheezy and under costed? Yes.
Bikers, undercosted.
Vendettas, Overpowered AND Undercosted.
Things that are undercosted arent always over powered, but things that are overpowered are usually undercosted aswell, but BECAUSE of their power level.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 21, 2012, 12:37:32 AM
Bikers, undercosted.
Vendettas, Overpowered AND Undercosted.
Things that are undercosted arent always over powered, but things that are overpowered are usually undercosted aswell, but BECAUSE of their power level.
Vendettas are a good example. Although armour 12 is not hard to crack if you have flyers as well, or anti-air units. How ever I just ignore flyers most of my games and found i actually do much better when I do.
That being said if you take no fortifications and strait tau Vendettas could be a night mare and your suits turn into a waste of points in games like that, which is why people take guard allies.
In 6th I can say that model can be looked upon as being over powered for what it does and how hard for you to get rid of it.
Quote from: Chicop76 on December 21, 2012, 12:43:41 AM
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 21, 2012, 12:37:32 AM
Bikers, undercosted.
Vendettas, Overpowered AND Undercosted.
Things that are undercosted arent always over powered, but things that are overpowered are usually undercosted aswell, but BECAUSE of their power level.
Vendettas are a good example. Although armour 12 is not hard to crack if you have flyers as well, or anti-air units. How ever I just ignore flyers most of my games and found i actually do much better when I do.
That being said if you take no fortifications and strait tau Vendettas could be a night mare and your suits turn into a waste of points in games like that, which is why people take guard allies.
In 6th I can say that model can be looked upon as being over powered for what it does and how hard for you to get rid of it.
Hmmmmm.... Hydra's? :)
When the only good counter for a unit is in the same army that unit is in it says alot about balance.
But just look at the thing. Every weakness the guard have, this things takes a throws out the window. Slow Vehicles? Heres a fast skimmer and now a flyer. Poor accuracy? Everything is Twin Linked! Flyers are fragile? Not you!
I wouldnt complain so much if it didnt have troop capacity an Heavy Bolter options, a dedicated gunship, but there is nothing this thing cant do and do well. With needing 6s to hit it on top of how powerful it was for (i think) around 140 points? And of course it is the best anti Flyer unit out there aswell. And they come in 3s.
It is the bench mark and yardstick by which all broken overpowered undercosted units should be measured.
[/rant]
But yes, even with some of the complaints I have heard about the Heldrake, the Chaos dex has nothing that is inherently broken.
Out of curiousity, what can the Heldrake do? I'm gaurantied to buy one for the simple Dragon-esque appearence (though every model I've seen IRL doesn't do the imagry justice), but what use is it in game?
Its a flyer, obviously. Has 2 weapon options, Some anti armour with a Hades or anti Infantry with a Baleflamer. Also has Vector Strike which allowed it to attack like a Flying MC. And the standard Deamon Engine rules from the Forge/Maulerfiend. It is a very good unit for hunting down other flyers because you can attack them in the air with multiple CC hits. It could be called cheap, but untill we see more fliers and what they can do I will reserve judgement on that.
Ooh, that sounds juicy. I think my Khorne army will have a Draconic Ace-in-the-hole C:<
Quote from: Narric of 4th Sphere on December 21, 2012, 01:07:08 AM
Out of curiousity, what can the Heldrake do? I'm gaurantied to buy one for the simple Dragon-esque appearence (though every model I've seen IRL doesn't do the imagry justice), but what use is it in game?
4 autto cannon shots, or it can have a hellhound weapon that is ap 3 which makes marines feel very toasty.
It's very anti-MEQ. I don't run marines anyway and rather run horder armies who just ignore it without taking major losses.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 21, 2012, 01:00:26 AM
When the only good counter for a unit is in the same army that unit is in it says alot about balance.
But just look at the thing. Every weakness the guard have, this things takes a throws out the window. Slow Vehicles? Heres a fast skimmer and now a flyer. Poor accuracy? Everything is Twin Linked! Flyers are fragile? Not you!
I wouldnt complain so much if it didnt have troop capacity an Heavy Bolter options, a dedicated gunship, but there is nothing this thing cant do and do well. With needing 6s to hit it on top of how powerful it was for (i think) around 140 points? And of course it is the best anti Flyer unit out there aswell. And they come in 3s.
It is the bench mark and yardstick by which all broken overpowered undercosted units should be measured.
[/rant]
But yes, even with some of the complaints I have heard about the Heldrake, the Chaos dex has nothing that is inherently broken.
Yeah. tha is why i would go with it being overpowered. The only overpowered unit in the game. It is said you have to take a cheesy under costed unit in the same codex to counter anouther cheesy under costed unit in the same book.
My daemons do not mind since I can still bolt them out of the sky with my flyers. Good luck killing Fate Weaver, unless they have that stupid psyker battle squad that can make him leadership two.
Nids however just call it a game when they see 6 vendettas with heavy bolters.
Going back to some of the earlier points in this thread, the Chaos codex has been complained about incessantly on Warseer, so it's not just DeviantArt, but it seems to have more positively received on the other fora I regularly participate in, so I put that down to the usual syndrome of moaning which infects the 40K section of Warseer.
Regarding the Thousand Sons, what I was referring to was the fact that the interaction with the Sorcerer leading them is still rather disappointing. For such a magical unit, the fact that the stick to modifying their Boltgun ammunition just seems to be a bit lacklustre. Quite why they couldn't have given the Sorcerers the power to infuse them with magical energies to allow them to use a range of magical weapons to make them more versatile, rather than just MEQ killers is a bit beyond me.
On the point of the Chaos codex versus other codices. First, I'm glad that it's not overpowered. Second, I don't see much value in complaining about it being below par in comparison with the Grey Knights codex. Remember that the Chaos codex is the first sixth edition codex, so the others are all going to change, and also consider that parts of the Grey Knights codex are overpowered, and are likely to be toned down when their book is re-written.
Quote from: Irisado on December 21, 2012, 11:23:27 AM
... so I put that down to the usual syndrome of moaning which infects the 40K section of Warseer.
Whiners are going to whine, unfortunately. It seems to be some sort of benchmark to new stuff these days - there has to be something to moan about it! There has to! There has to! OMG the models come unpainted! ./whine
::)
Oh, really Isi? They didn't do anything 'fun and giggles' with the Sorcerer? That's suck. *bit turned down*
I was thinking of modelling the grey past of my Ultrawolves (who may have been a Thousand Sons root, long story, hehe) but with a bland Sorcerer that just became a lot less enticing a prospect. :/
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 21, 2012, 01:00:26 AM
When the only good counter for a unit is in the same army that unit is in it says alot about balance.
Right! I didn't have my brain on 'On' last night, clearly...
Admittedly, being a sucker for fluffy armies my Catachan don't really do fliers, but I am dragging along Hydras in case there's an airspam. It is cheesy, yea, but IG against IG it's also pretty fun trying to pinata the hell out of each other I think. Well, if you have a sporty friend to do it with, of course. :P
Quote from: Linn Scarlett on December 21, 2012, 11:45:36 AM
Whiners are going to whine, unfortunately. It seems to be some sort of benchmark to new stuff these days - there has to be something to moan about it! There has to! There has to! OMG the models come unpainted! ./whine
People used to whine back in the days of Rogue Trader and second edition too. I had a friend back then who used to complain about everything. It's just the internet means that we all get exposed to more whining. I just don't read it, or if I have to for any particular reason, I'll either disagree with it, or post something positive to counteract it :).
QuoteOh, really Isi? They didn't do anything 'fun and giggles' with the Sorcerer? That's suck. *bit turned down*
I was thinking of modelling the grey past of my Ultrawolves (who may have been a Thousand Sons root, long story, hehe) but with a bland Sorcerer that just became a lot less enticing a prospect. :/
The Sorcerer HQ choice is very good, it's just the interaction between the Aspiring Sorcerer and the Thousand Sons he leads which is a bit lacking in my opinion. The Chaos HQ section is revitalised though, with the Daemon Prince no longer the default choice, and I'd certainly be tempted to field a Sorcerer and Lord HQ combination in games where I could afford a dual HQ, rather than the Daemon Prince.
This is why the Chaos codex does offer so much more choice now. Your good units were limited in fifth, but now you can make a much wider range of units work for you, depending on the style of army you want to field.
Out with the cookiecutter built, in with the new idowhatiwantandstillkickbutt! I hope the coming 6th E codexi will also be this nice, with tons of valid options to play with.
Glad to hear it's not as bad as I instantly feared! Would be fun to play a bit with the 1kS.
Hehe, and also quite glad I am not the only one haunting this place when at (bored with) work!
*doddles her pen, trying to find comparable characteristics in the sediments her artefacts came from* :shifty:
The other thing that helps Chaos armies, particularly Thousand Sons, is being able to ally with Daemons. Thousand Sons on their own still look pretty tricky to use, based on my observations, and discussions with experienced Thousand Sons players elsewhere, but combine them with Tzeentch Daemons, and the army as a whole becomes much more threatening and versatile.
These alliances have also given Chaos players a wider set of options and tactical considerations to take into account when formulating their army lists, so it's all looking pretty positive in my opinion.
Quote from: Irisado on December 21, 2012, 02:52:10 PM
The other thing that helps Chaos armies, particularly Thousand Sons, is being able to ally with Daemons. Thousand Sons on their own still look pretty tricky to use, based on my observations, and discussions with experienced Thousand Sons players elsewhere, but combine them with Tzeentch Daemons, and the army as a whole becomes much more threatening and versatile.
These alliances have also given Chaos players a wider set of options and tactical considerations to take into account when formulating their army lists, so it's all looking pretty positive in my opinion.
It does allow you to use real daemons and a step back to what Chaos use to be. The daemon option allows you to cover the mobility problem, anti-air, and terminators. I play mono Tzeentch for Daemons and toyed with the ideal of taking on some Tzeentch space marines.
QuoteOh, really Isi? They didn't do anything 'fun and giggles' with the Sorcerer? That's suck. *bit turned down*
Thousand Sons function largely as they did in the previous codex, albeit they can get Soulblaze for their bolters, they've got a few less disadvantages (including no more "The Sorcerer Commands"), the sorcerer is cheaper, and the sorcerer's powers have a bit more offensive punch, though are rolled randomly as per new psychic power rules.
QuoteThe Sorcerer HQ choice is very good, it's just the interaction between the Aspiring Sorcerer and the Thousand Sons he leads which is a bit lacking in my opinion.
I was hoping for that too :(
Thousand Sons and all Tzeentch armies definitely got a boost in this codex and with sixth edition, which makes me very happy having played them for a decade now. The unit itself got cheaper (no more 90 point Aspiring Sorcerers!) and weirdly got better in combat with space marines. Still, its very disappointing that the Aspiring Sorcerer can only take a single spell from the lore of Tzeentch.
That lore is particularly disappointing considering the great powers that Slaanesh and Nurgle have access to. The primaris Power, Tzeentch's Firestorm suffers greatly from a lack of any AP and a random strength value. While it could be useful in giving a Thousand Sons unit more theoretical firepower against larger blobs of troops like Guardsmen or Orks, those really arent the targets the unit should be firing at anyway and I've never had it do anything worthwhile.
Doombolt is a great power that gives the unit a great high strength low AP punch that automatically hits whatever you point it at. The sorcerer cant use Breath of Chaos at all because it requires two warp charges and Boon of Mutation IMO is near worthless. Thus, more often than not you find your sorcerer saddled with the mediocre Firestorm.
I really wish they had made the Thousand Sons Aspiring Sorcerer either a level 2 psyker or let him take powers in other disciplines rather than that of Tzeentch because it really doesn't benefit him at all.
Thousand Sons make a great unit though for any army and bodyguard for a sorcerer, but I really wouldnt advise taking more than a single unit of them. They are simply far to expensive and the lack of special and heavy weapons hurts them a great deal (Unless you buy melta bombs, the whole unit is helpless against a Dreadnaught).
I would say that if you are undivided, you are definitely spoiled for choices through and back. However I will speak as a Death Guard player, and I can see that my list is quite regimented in the sense that my choices are quite obvious for me. Of course, this does not mean that my army is underpowered. On the contrary I find that it can handle a lot of things. The cultist for example are great as they are a cheap and large unit to have that can hold objectives while the rest of the Death guard could go about doing their own shenanigans.
The only thing I have a gripe about is the Helldrake, as it is something I am unsure off despite its capabilities, as it is not as fluffy to have for a Death Guard player. Of course, I can always make it a large fly or something and I will be on my merry way.