Codex released. Got it today, first impressions are very good. General points decreases across the board. Fun new units.
In conclusion, not ruined
I'm mostly curious about the new stuff, before knowing about the updated.
First question would be are you referring to the
MT or
AM codex? :P
I'm going to assume this thread is for the Astra Militarum, who I shall henceforth refer to as the Guard, because the name will never stick. Here's a list of what I consider notable points:
The good:
- Vendetta is a lot more expensive and has half the transport capacity
- General points decreases for deserving units
- Storm trooper platoons, with officers, as an elite's choice
- FRFSRF now affects hot shots
- Ministorum priests can grant some special rules, and has zealot
- Commissars don't always shoot the sergeant
- Techpriests can grant Power of the Machine Spirit
- Tank Commanders!
- Advisors generally improved
- The Deathmask of Ollanius. I only learned of Ollanius Pius recently, and I like him. The actual bit of wargear isn't bad either.
- Manticores only lose one missilie per weapon destroyed result, not all of them
- Deathstrikes get to fire sooner
The bad:
- No more basilisk variants
- Rough riders haven't changed
- Chimeras are more expensive, and while you can fire more lasguns out the back, you can't fire as many special weapons. I admit it makes sense, but I'll miss the old rules
- Harker no longer buffs his unit
- Priests can't take eviscerators any more (their new special rules will probably make up for this though)
- Command squads are more expensive, and advisors can't take carapace armour
I haven't read the fluff yet, but the rules seem solid so far.
Quote from: Mabbz on April 12, 2014, 07:49:38 PM
- No more basilisk variants
Does that mean there's no more Medusa?
Dammit, that was quite an expensive purchase. I pre-ordered the codex but it hasn't arrived yet so I'll get to view it on Monday, hopefully. What I'm reading here generally sounds good, two questions though;
1) Have Leman Russ's changed at all?
2) Can you still get massive units of 50 Guardsmen?
Yeah, no more medusa :(
As for your other questions:
1) Not that I can see, except for some points decreases
2) Yep. As far as I can see, the only changes to platoons are lower points and no special characters (Al'Rahem and Chenkov are gone)
Leman Russes have changed massively. They can now be taken as HQs with their own Orders and tonnes of cool rules. Pask has become a monster as well, expect this guy to be more common than Longstrike, with HQ Tank Commander status, Tank Hunters, and special rules depending on the variant of Leman Russ he's rolling around in.
I meant that Leman Russes as Heavy Support haven't changed. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I must admit I thought the good times were gone but I think I like this new codex. I was hoping for autocanon turrets on the chimera which we didnt get and I too will miss the special weapons shenanigans with the top hatch but it does make sense, I like that a chimera and squad can now target 4 separate units. We all saw the vendetta getting a nerf but its still effective. I must admit bullygryns look fun, and im loving HQ tanks.
The chimera can target 4 units? What bullshittery is this?
Front Hull Weapon, Turret, Side Lasguns, and Top-hatch? :P
Front and turret weapons at onem each lasgun array can pick a different target and then the models from the top hatch can pick another.
Wow, I wasn't far off. So a Chimera could potentially have three weapons on a target in front, with its fourth Lasgun Array targeting a flanking or rear target? That sounds like how vehicles should work in my mind, I'm sorry to say ^_^;; Non of this "all vehicle weapons must target a single enemy" bull. Walkers are obviously an exception to that.
It makes sense in a vehicle like the chimera where all those guns are being individualy manned as opposed to "computer" controlled
The new Wyvern seems to be born to slaughter light Infantry. My Shas'la are getting a bit worried! Not to mention the sheer mass of Divination available coupled with some excellent Orders. I expect Guard to really be able to bring the pain at range, and with cheap access to Zealot, they won't be terrible at tarpitting, either.
Also, off-topic but:
QuoteHis fail is always spelling, and grammer. Verbally he has a fine grip of the queens English, but ask him to write it down and hes like Iron Man in a magnet factory.
Not sure if deliberate irony...
I've just started looking through the fluff sections, and one sentence caught my eye.
"Im a galaxy of never-ending warfare, what makes the perpetually outmatched men of the Imperial guard so admirable is that they know near constant fear, yet they lift their weapons, plant their feet, and fight on regardless."
That is why I collect Imperial Guard. So far, this codex looks pretty good to me fluffwise.
Quote from: Tactical Genius on April 14, 2014, 06:46:54 AM
It makes sense in a vehicle like the chimera where all those guns are being individualy manned as opposed to "computer" controlled
You mean advanced AIs that can track hundreds of targets a second and take full control of the vehicles weapon systems?
No.
It's a super heavy ability.
Why can't GW just balance the Chimera like a normal damn transport? It was fine in the 4th edition dex. Guys fire from the hatch, it becomes open topped. It's already cheap for a nice AV12 unit with good firepower options.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on April 14, 2014, 11:54:19 AM
Quote from: Tactical Genius on April 14, 2014, 06:46:54 AM
It makes sense in a vehicle like the chimera where all those guns are being individualy manned as opposed to "computer" controlled
You mean advanced AIs that can track hundreds of targets a second and take full control of the vehicles weapon systems?
No.
It's a super heavy ability.
Why can't GW just balance the Chimera like a normal damn transport? It was fine in the 4th edition dex. Guys fire from the hatch, it becomes open topped. It's already cheap for a nice AV12 unit with good firepower options.
In the chimera's defence, it can only fire two guns from the top instead of five now. I used to be able to fire two meltaguns, a heavy flamer, Harker's heavy bolter and throw a grenade. I've gained a few lasgun shots, but I've lost a few special weapon slots. Plus it's more expensive now. Anyway, firing three lasguns at a separate target is rarely going to do anything useful; I imagine most people will fire them at the same targets as the passengers anyway.
If anything, I think more tanks should have this kind of ability. Maybe give vehicles a "Gunners" stat, that determines how many different targets they can fire at. It'd make sense fluff wise, although it'd mean making most vehicles more expensive.
I had this argument with a friend who adores Space Marines. The Guard are better because they have crap weapons, crap armour and crap training, but despite that they fight and hold the line. Space Marines get bits and pieces shoved in that make them do this, the Guard swallow their fear, hold their breath, and start pouring lasfire into whatever hellspawn they're fighting that day.
Yes, it would make sense for vehicles to be able to target multiple units. But they can't because GW made a game where that isn't how it works. And then they keep bringing out units that say "See that main rule book? Screw it.".
I agree with you that GW has a bad habit of making rules just so they can break the at a later date to make a model seem interesting. Still, this isn't a particularly egregious example, and isn't overpowered by a long stretch. GW's many failings don't seem to have made it into this book, aside from the price tag. There's nothing that stands out as being incredibly stupid or broken.
That said, I feel I should point out that if you were bored you could make a chimera fire at five different targets instead of four, because Techpriests have gained the ability to give vehicles Power of the Machine Spirit provided they don't do anything else that turn :P
Firing at multiple targets is part of what makes Superheavies better than standard vehicles.
Yes it is. A Chimera isn't superheavy though.
I didn't say it was...
Did you ever notice how the IG were really short on places to put lots of tanks? I hadn't until GW pointed it out but giving them more squadrons to use in the HQ section.
It seems this is the codex where GW stops saying "Here is the FOC, choose carefully." and just says "Feck it, take everything with a side of more things."
You have Ogryns with a 3+ Armour save for 5 points more than a regular Ogryn! AND when they get that 3+ save they give +1 cover save to anything that is behind them. And you get 4+ cover for shooting through units anyway, so now it is 3+ cover, in the open!
You can still Spam men, which, ok, fluffy, so i'm ok with it, but you can NOW spam men with AP3 weapons up the wazoo, I wouldn't even dream of taking my Crisis suits within 18" of these guys. Ok, they need 5s to wound but GW took care of that by making them BS4 and saying "Go on, have an extra shot in exchange for a leadership test."
People say mean things about Blood Angels and Grey Knights and Necrons. . .if you want the cream of GWs Asshattery, look no further than the IG codexes.
So GW have corrected the Meta of 3+ Armour spammage?
Narric - have a cookie. Jayne is just sore because IG got new stuff. At the end of the day you are still bound by a points limit. Yes you could go russ heavy but your risking a low model count.
Im not sure about new stuff, I am miffed about new stuff that doesn't seem to have been thought through. Do you need more tanks? Do you need Ogryns with a 3+ armour save? Because they weren't damage resistant enough already. Do you need multile squads of guys with AP3 guns and 3 shots each at BS4 to take up a single Elite slot?
They are writing great fluff, but consistantly moving away from it. Lots of guys who die easy and big hard to kill but slow tanks. That is the POINT of IG, and the guys are getting less squishy, the tanks are still harder to kill only you can take 15 of them in a single list, and with the points reductions I suspect you actually could if you didn't pack them out with gear, and they are getting faster because the table is getting smaller.
GW keep rewriting IG as an army that really has no weaknesses when played right.
Worked it out and you can just about get 15 of the cheapest russ in a legal 2000 army. No upgrades. No heavy hitters. Hard to kill yes but comparitavley not doing the damage.
QuoteAnd you get 4+ cover for shooting through units anyway, so now it is 3+ cover, in the open!
You get a 5+, 4+ for the Bullgryns.
Hotshot Lasguns are now S4 Ap3.
QuoteDo you need more tanks?
IG could take 9 tanks in Heavy Support with the last Codex, wasting HQ on yet more tanks isn't exactly smart, though.
QuoteDo you need Ogryns with a 3+ armour save? Because they weren't damage resistant enough already.
They weren't. Pulse Rifles wounded them on 4s, and they only have a 5+ Armour Save.
QuoteDo you need multile squads of guys with AP3 guns and 3 shots each at BS4 to take up a single Elite slot?
Said guys are small squads of T3, 4+ Armour. If you can't slaughter that, you're not doing very well anyway. The guys haven't gotten less squishy, they're pretty much the same as the last Codex.
Sky ain't falling, Chicken Little.
Let me just crank out the AP 4 ^_^
I'm really wishing I could start either my Space Dwarf or Dark Eldar army right now, as this seems the perfect time to throw my unique style of list creation at opponents :P
Why would you take regular Ogryns when for a mere 5 points they can get a 3+ armour save as Bullgryns?
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on April 15, 2014, 11:46:31 AM
Why would you take regular Ogryns when for a mere 5 points they can get a 3+ armour save as Bullgryns?
I for one never liked the look and stats of the Ogryns anyway, so any changes to them don't affect me. I'd much rather have Storm Troopers (Scions now?) to be able to take down enemy MEq. 4+ Armour isn't exactly tissue paper, as most standard weaponry doesn't go below AP5. Anything AP4 or better is either going to be not that strong or have few shots (Heavy Bolter and Plasma Gun/Meltagun as examples respectively). Any big guns with AP3 or better probably should be targeting you vehicles :P
Without knowing the full difference between Ogryns and Bullgryns, I mostly find it surprising that 3+ armour as an upgrade from 4+ for only 5pts is increadibly cheap. Maybe a little too cheap.
Why would you take Stealth Suits when Crisis Suits and Riptides are so much better? Why would you take Mutilators when Obliterators are so much better? Why would you take Swooping Hawks when Warp Spiders are so much better? Why would you take Night Spinners when Fire Prisms are so much better? Why would you take Warp Talons when Bikers are so much better? Why would you take Assault Marines when Bikers are so much better? Why would you take a Space Marine Captain when Chapter Masters are so much better? Why would you take Farsight when a Shas'O is so much better? Why would you take Shrikes when Raveners are so much better?
And so on, ad nauseum. Basically, most people just won't take them.
QuoteI for one never liked the look and stats of the Ogryns anyway, so any changes to them don't affect me. I'd much rather have Storm Troopers (Scions now?) to be able to take down enemy MEq. 4+ Armour isn't exactly tissue paper, as most standard weaponry doesn't go below AP5. Anything AP4 or better is either going to be not that strong or single shots (Heavy Bolter and Meltagun as examples respectively)
4+ Save only gives you a 50/50 chance of not dying. Bolters in Rapid Fire range will hit on 3s, Wound on 3s, so 6 Marines with 12 shots will get about 8 hits, 6 Wounds, and 3 dead Scions. Given how small the squads are, that's pretty nasty losses there.
Quote from: CoffeeGrunt on April 15, 2014, 08:42:24 AMHotshot Lasguns are now S4 Ap3.
Gotta ask a big Whiskey Tango Foxtrot about this fecal matter! Why would you take a bolter when a hotshot lasgun does it better? 6 inches worth of range? Really?
Quote from: Narric on April 15, 2014, 11:56:25 AM
Without knowing the full difference between Ogryns and Bullgryns, I mostly find it surprising that 3+ armour as an upgrade from 4+ for only 5pts is increadibly cheap. Maybe a little too cheap.
Effectively they're two different units, the Ogryns are the ranged unit with Ripper Guns and the Bullgryns are the close combat unit with their own version of the frag grenade launcher and a big shield.
Ogryns have a 5+ save and Bullgryns have a 4+ save however if a Bullgryn with a slab shield (the standard issue shield) is in base contact with another slab shield user in the same squad then he gets +1 to his armour save and anyone behind them gets +1 to their cover save. It isn't an upgrade which boosts their armour, they're different units completely and the Bullgryn is slightly more expensive.
The Bullgryn also has an option to swap his 'Grenadier Gauntlet and Slab Shield' for a 'Power Maul and Brute Shield' which makes his close combat attacks Str7 AP4 and his save becomes 4+/5++, this of course makes him even more expensive.
Quote from: KCKitsune on April 15, 2014, 12:55:53 PM
Quote from: CoffeeGrunt on April 15, 2014, 08:42:24 AMHotshot Lasguns are now S4 Ap3.
Gotta ask a big Whiskey Tango Foxtrot about this fecal matter! Why would you take a bolter when a hotshot lasgun does it better? 6 inches worth of range? Really?
They aren't, the hot-shot lasguns haven't changed. The only thing that's Str4 AP3 is the new hot-shot volley gun which is a special weapon that can only be used by Tempestus units. It's also Salvo 2/4 if anyone's interested.
Aww, that sucks.
Loved the punisher cannon 20 str 5 shots bang pask on it and it gains rending. Great against hoardes lol
The Pask Star unit looks set to be the new broken set up..
Tank Commander, Pask, all Punisher Russes.
Preferred Enemy, fire on my target and 60 shots a turn... that would be enough to turn any unit into mash....
Can only really threaten 1-2 units a turn, and you're really relying on Rends to kill anything with a decent Armour Save.
Sheer weight of fire is gunna hurt... I watched this go toe to toe with a death guard army. Nurgle was losing a whole squad of plague marines even when they were in cover each turn...
60 shots, rerolling missed hits (Pask's Preferred Enemy), I'm not gunna do the maths, but that's a lot of hits. Then 'fire on my target' from the tank commander ignoring cover saves.... Thats a lot of wounds... Can put the hurt down range!
Quote from: Chris on April 16, 2014, 02:22:55 PM
Sheer weight of fire is gunna hurt... I watched this go toe to toe with a death guard army. Nurgle was losing a whole squad of plague marines even when they were in cover each turn...
60 shots, rerolling missed hits (Pask's Preferred Enemy), I'm not gunna do the maths, but that's a lot of hits. Then 'fire on my target' from the tank commander ignoring cover saves.... Thats a lot of wounds... Can put the hurt down range!
I should probably point out that Tank Commanders have their own orders; 'Full Throttle', 'Gunners, Kill on Sight' and 'Strike and Shroud', they can't use normal orders because they have the 'Tank Orders' special rule but not the 'Voice of Command' special rule. Therefore Pask cannot use 'Fire on my Target'. And even he did have 'Voice of Command' the regular orders can only be directed at "a single friendly non-vehicle unit".
Quote60 shots, rerolling missed hits (Pask's Preferred Enemy)
Preferred Enemy only lets you re-roll 1s. For Guard hitting on 4s, that's only a 1/6 improvement in accuracy. Good, but not great. Maybe a couple of extra hits on average.
Against Nurgle Marines, discounting Pask, they should have got 20 hits off the first volley, re-rolling netting them another...5 hits, to be generous. 25 hits, wounding on 4s, re-rolling 1s nets them 12 Wounds, with another 2 on the Re-roll.
14 Wounds past a 3+ Armour Save nets you 5 Unsaved Wounds. 3 if they have Feel No Pain as true Plague Marines should.
Of course, Pask adds a lot into the bargain when he starts firing. 13 hits, re-rolling another 2. 8 Wounds, re-rolling another 1. 9 Wounds, 2 Rends, 7 Normal. 4 unsaved, 3 past FNP.
Dice are fickle, though, and I've been generous with the output. It could be worse, and this setup is damned expensive for 6 dead Plaguies. The Executioner would see it done much better. The advantage of the Punisher now is that in Pask's hands, it's a jack-of-all-trades thing.
So im now writing my first tourny list. Had a play test on Tuesday and wyverns Are great. They will slaughter light infantry and threaten TEQ. Tank orders work well although apparently tanks are only L9. Scions work well and the new taurox prime is good. Also new chimera rules play well.
Threaten TEQ? And the rest. You caused 57 wounds on my unit of 10 Firewarriors and I rolled 6 1s there. If anything that's on the low side. It is a rediculous unit.
Overhead Cover is God when Wyverns are rolling around.
It is pretty much the only thing that works.
Either that or Transports.
Or just go full TEq :P with much Str7+
If/when I get back into purchasing new Codexi, I'll certainly be noseing through the AM codex :P
Full TEQ lowers your model count drastically though. Making you more vunerable to the rest of the army.
Full TEQ drops quick to Lascannons and Plasma Guns. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.