Carried on from the general enclave thread
Well I did a tournament recently and I had a single Hammerhead with flechette dischargers. My Hammerhead survived most battles because I told my opponent that I had them so they didn't even attempt to charge it (except the other Tau player I faced who threw Farsight at it late in the game).
Its quite possible that all of the marine players who didn't charge it were worried that it was more powerful than it actually is, but who was I to correct them? They didn't asky, they just assumed they knew.
Looking at the actual rules, I'd say they do best against horde armies. If a load of genestealers charged into your tank then you'd be happy to have spent the points, a squad of TH-SS terminators on the other hand would probably just walk right through it.
I think they are. I haven't used them yet, but in 6th Edition Flechette Launchers are a much better investment than they were previously. While I have my disagreements with 6th Ed, I think I understand why they made vehicles so easy to hit in melee: to balance out how weak melee is against other things. That being the case, any decently balanced list is likely going to use assault to defeat vehicles since they so often have cover saves (excellent ones for Tau skimmers) against shooting. I think a Tau vehicle with both the disruption pod and the flechette launchers would be pretty frustrating for an opponent. "If I shoot it, he'll just take that 3+ cover save, but if I assault it 1/3 or so of my guys are going to die before they swing at it." With an equation like that, it kinda makes sense that an opponent would just ignore the vehicle and concentrate on targets he can actually damage!
Of course, the details of the assaulting force, particularly its armor save, will make quite a difference. Terminators won't worry about it at all, nor will any kind of multi-wound monstrous creature. Something like a Daemonic Herald of Khorne on a chariot probably won't be intimidated either. A Space Marine tactical squad would probably think about it for a moment and still charge since they would only lose 1 of every 6 models on average. If you're lucky that one model might be the guy with the melta bomb or powerfist as you would have to roll for each type of model separately. (Right? I'm pretty sure the description of flechette launchers says A MODEL...) However, a horde unit that is otherwise very good at taking vehicles would be at a huge disadvantage. Genestealers and other Tyranids, Orcs, and most flavors of Daemon would be a losing proposition in assault against flechette launchers! With my Daemon lists, I often charge vehicles with Daemonettes, and an unsoftened squad of them can easily kill any vehicle with a rear armor of 10. (Note to self, run the math of trying for the rend against one of the heavier Leman Russes with their 11 rear armor.) But I would definitely not charge a flechette-equipped vehicle with them unless I was fairly desperate. Of course, that's why I run lots of Breath of Chaos. :P
Frankly, in my opinion, Flechettes were the most broken upgrade available to a vehicle in 5th edition, especially given their points cost. This edition they're second to Disruption Pods.
The reason Flechettes are so absurd is simple. They automatically hit, wound on a 4+ regardless and ALWAYS strike first. This means that for a measly 10 points you're taking out half a genestealer unit, or half a Wych unit. 1 of either of those will cost more than the upgrade, never mind half a squad worth. Add in that both those example units have a significantly higher Initiative than any Tau unit and they're ridiculous.
Then, compare them to Envenomed Blades for Dark Eldar vehicles. 5pts, but has a fixed Strength value, strikes AFTER the attacks are made against the vehicle despite the high Initiative of Dark Eldar, and only causes a hit if your opponent rolls a 1.
The 2 don't even come close to being equal, yet there's a measly 5pts in difference, bearing in mind that this edition Dark Eldar lost the combat advantage they had for being Fast. So yes, Flechettes are worth it, in fact they are too good for their points. FAR too good, and I sincerely hope that they, and Disruption Pods get fixed in the next Tau codex, because neither of them should be costing less than 20pts in my opinion.
What does the Initiave of the parent race have to do with ANYTHING here? Thats just suggesting that the Tau need to make intentionally sluggish computers. No matter how fast you are, you have to get to the vehicle first. As you approach the sensor find you and blast you with shards of metal. You can be I10, but unless you are incorporeal, you are STILL having to walk through a wall of shrapnel.
The DE dex is a late 5 early 6th dex. The Tau dex is an early 4th. OF COURSE there are going to be points differences and a change in power balance.
The Tau are NOT dark Eldar. I can't get annoyed at not being able to reduce my enemies weapons range, Or the ability to field loads of Lances. You have Lances, I have Railguns. You have Envenomed Blades, I have Flachettes. You have I6, I only have I2. You have WS(4?) I have WS2.
Swings and roundabouts. There are pros and cons to every army. Nowadays the only unique things the Tau have going for them is the ability to Shroud most of their army.
I fully agree that Dpod need a points boost. But some of the vehicles, Fish included need a serious points drop. And Flachettes could use a rework. But Tau is now (I think) the oldest codex out there, so it is going to start standing out as not normal.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 02, 2012, 05:03:57 PM
What does the Initiave of the parent race have to do with ANYTHING here? Thats just suggesting that the Tau need to make intentionally sluggish computers. No matter how fast you are, you have to get to the vehicle first. As you approach the sensor find you and blast you with shards of metal. You can be I10, but unless you are incorporeal, you are STILL having to walk through a wall of shrapnel.
The DE dex is a late 5 early 6th dex. The Tau dex is an early 4th. OF COURSE there are going to be points differences and a change in power balance.
The Tau are NOT dark Eldar. I can't get annoyed at not being able to reduce my enemies weapons range, Or the ability to field loads of Lances. You have Lances, I have Railguns. You have Envenomed Blades, I have Flachettes. You have I6, I only have I2. You have WS(4?) I have WS2.
Swings and roundabouts. There are pros and cons to every army. Nowadays the only unique things the Tau have going for them is the ability to Shroud most of their army.
I fully agree that Dpod need a points boost. But some of the vehicles, Fish included need a serious points drop. And Flachettes could use a rework. But Tau is now (I think) the oldest codex out there, so it is going to start standing out as not normal.
The Initiative matters because it generally shows the limitations of how fast the race can operate and react. I'm fairly sure Crisis Suits etc get an Initiative boost
because of the computer. If Tau are capable of making machines that operate at I10 then why aren't their Drones I10? Yes, I'm aware of the description, no I don't see how shrapnel is as likely to harm a Warithrlord or Carnifex as it is likely to wound a bog standard infantry model. It doesn't make sense.
I'm aware that the Tau aren't Dark Eldar, I'm aware that each race has its pros and cons. Envenomed blades were used because they're the only comparable upgrade I can think of off the top of my head that I have the rules and points costs to hand for. However as you pointed out, the Tau weakness is combat, so why do they have arguably the best combat equipment of any vehicle in the game?
Also, NO, the Devilfish does NOT need a "serious" points drop. It needs a tweak, that's about it. Yes, I know it's 20pts more than a Raider as standard, but it has 2pts better armour on Front and Side, and isn't open topped. If you think that doesn't matter, play against anyone with Bolters. Hell, go against a Guard Chimera list. You'll laugh at their Multilasers, the same weapons cripple my vehicles with ease. There is a reason for things costing what they do, and a Devilfish should be around 70pts at the absolute cheapest I reckon.
Also, yes I have Lance weaponry, you have Railguns. Are you
seriously trying to tell me that you think Lances are better than a bloody Railgun??? Railgun has better strength, so against anything other than AV14 it needs less to damage, then it's AP1, not 2 so that's ANOTHER +1 on the damage chart. That means against my Ravagers, for example, you Penetrate on a 2+ and get +3 on the damage table, meaning that Ravager is dead on a 3+. By comparison, my Lances need 5+ to Penetrate and only get +1 on the damage chart, so I need 5+ again to destroy the Hammerhead.
No, I was pointing out that we all have different things and its no use saying "You can do this and I cant!" Lances are far more availiable than Railguns though, and they are hardly a poor weapon.
The function of the Flachette discharger is unique. It is a device that is designed specifically to PREVENT attacks on the vehicle. If it fired after the attacks had been made, it wouldnt serve that function would it? It's a great counter point to the Taus lack of CC ability. "Yes our guys go down faster than an old woman on an ungritted path, but our vehicles can and will mess you up in CC."
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 02, 2012, 05:39:02 PM
No, I was pointing out that we all have different things and its no use saying "You can do this and I cant!" Lances are far more availiable than Railguns though, and they are hardly a poor weapon.
The function of the Flachette discharger is unique. It is a device that is designed specifically to PREVENT attacks on the vehicle. If it fired after the attacks had been made, it wouldnt serve that function would it? It's a great counter point to the Taus lack of CC ability. "Yes our guys go down faster than an old woman on an ungritted path, but our vehicles can and will mess you up in CC."
Except that's not what I was pointing out. What I was pointing out is that there are similar weapons available for other races which are absolute shite by comparison,especially when you consider the points costs.
Also, yes they would still serve a purpose if they strike after, or even simultaneously as you CAN panic from it, it does counts as wounds in combat, coupled with a potential explosion it can and is likely to cripple units of Genestealers, Wyches, Orks etc. and possibly make them flee, denying an objective, or saving another of your units.
Furthermore, why should Tau be the only race whose vehicle protection strikes first? They're a comparatively new race to the galactic battlefield, who haven't much experience with many races besides Orks and therefore wouldn't know what speeds other races are capable of. Whereas Dark Eldar etc, who have been around for
literally millenia haven't thought to put something on their vehicles that triggers before the enemy strikes? It makes no sense.
Why should Tau have to fit a cookie cutter "works like everybody else" template? Why shouldn't they be different? The Eldar have been around for Millions of years, so why arent they able to automatically beat everyone with vastly superior technology? BEcause that isnt how the game works.
The Tau have what is now mediocre shooting, as every codex seems to have been besed on the idea that Tau are the yardstick for shooting and all new codexes should be able to outshoot them. They have sub par CC abilities. Even with 6th they struggle to get good wins against competant opponants. Once they get a new dex Flachettes will undoubtedly be different. For now they are one of 2 stand out devices next to the Railgun, which isnt as special as it was.
Old Codex, Old Rules. In a new edition it stands out.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 02, 2012, 06:02:57 PM
Why should Tau have to fit a cookie cutter "works like everybody else" template? Why shouldn't they be different? The Eldar have been around for Millions of years, so why arent they able to automatically beat everyone with vastly superior technology? BEcause that isnt how the game works.
The Tau have what is now mediocre shooting, as every codex seems to have been besed on the idea that Tau are the yardstick for shooting and all new codexes should be able to outshoot them. They have sub par CC abilities. Even with 6th they struggle to get good wins against competant opponants. Once they get a new dex Flachettes will undoubtedly be different. For now they are one of 2 stand out devices next to the Railgun, which isnt as special as it was.
Old Codex, Old Rules. In a new edition it stands out.
Average shooting? Are you fething kidding me??? Your basic troops have S5 weapons, with an extra 6" range, an extra 3" rapid fire range now, the ability to remove cover saves or reduce leadership, oh, and you have a decent bloody armour save too. There aren't that many armies that can outshoot Tau as comfortably as you seem to be making out. Yes, Guard can, but guard are fucking absurd against anyone thanks to Crudface.
yes, in the new codex Flechettes probably will be different in the new codex, but unfortunately there's a decent chance that they'll be even bloody worse than they already are the way things are going. Yes, they're one of 2 stand out items, but that's not to say that everything else is shit, that just means that everything else is reasonable and sensible.
I've said this before, there's a couple of point tweaks needed here and there sure, but by and large the Tau don't really
need anything apart from a flier/anti-flier capability and maybe a couple of shiny new
sensible weapons. Exactly what the 'Nids needed before Crudface got his hands on them. So let's hope he doesn't get the Tau. :P
Sod this essay, it seems to be impossible to get a word in edgeways here.
I'm just going to say: Meltaguns. Solution to all your anti-tank problems.
Quote from: Railgun Convention on December 02, 2012, 06:17:25 PM
Sod this essay, it seems to be impossible to get a word in edgeways here.
I'm just going to say: Meltaguns. Solution to all your anti-tank problems.
You tried getting a meltagunner into range in this edition? Without having a 3+ save? Furthermore, we don't all have meltaguns. Dark Eldar have similar, but they're lower strength, and only available on expensive, fragile units thus they're rarely taken; Tyranids just don't have similar, neither do Orks IIRC, or Daemons.
Jayne, on the "Flechettes are fired by computers" front... why are Drones only Initiative 4? They are computers, so surely they should be Initiative 10 at the least?
So, we know Tau AI controlled units are I4. Ergo, the Flechettes should be I4 at most.
Quote from: Wargamer on December 02, 2012, 09:53:16 PM
Jayne, on the "Flechettes are fired by computers" front... why are Drones only Initiative 4? They are computers, so surely they should be Initiative 10 at the least?
So, we know Tau AI controlled units are I4. Ergo, the Flechettes should be I4 at most.
There is a difference between trying to dodge a drone and trying to dodge a cloud that surrounds your target. Why would a cloud have an initiative, you have to go through the cloud to get to the tank. The way I see it is you get within a certain range trigger a sensor that shoots out a massive cloud.
A drone initiative is not just the sensors reacting to you; it
Quote from: Wargamer on December 02, 2012, 09:53:16 PM
Jayne, on the "Flechettes are fired by computers" front... why are Drones only Initiative 4? They are computers, so surely they should be Initiative 10 at the least?
So, we know Tau AI controlled units are I4. Ergo, the Flechettes should be I4 at most.
Sure they can react at the same time, but a drone reacting involves changing its velocity using thrusters. A flechette discharger just has to fire. When the codex gets updated I fully expect flechettes to be used as a form of overwatch.
The way I see it, flechettes are powerful for what they do, but due to their situational nature and the fact that they almost never actually save the vehicle they are that much of an issue. They might need a slight points increase, but nothing like as much as D-pods. Their increase probably wouldn't even be noticable since most Tau vehicles need a decrease (except maybe the hammerhead).
EDIT: Ninja'd on the initiative issue
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on December 02, 2012, 06:14:41 PM
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 02, 2012, 06:02:57 PM
Why should Tau have to fit a cookie cutter "works like everybody else" template? Why shouldn't they be different? The Eldar have been around for Millions of years, so why arent they able to automatically beat everyone with vastly superior technology? BEcause that isnt how the game works.
The Tau have what is now mediocre shooting, as every codex seems to have been besed on the idea that Tau are the yardstick for shooting and all new codexes should be able to outshoot them. They have sub par CC abilities. Even with 6th they struggle to get good wins against competant opponants. Once they get a new dex Flachettes will undoubtedly be different. For now they are one of 2 stand out devices next to the Railgun, which isnt as special as it was.
Old Codex, Old Rules. In a new edition it stands out.
Average shooting? Are you fething kidding me??? Your basic troops have S5 weapons, with an extra 6" range, an extra 3" rapid fire range now, the ability to remove cover saves or reduce leadership, oh, and you have a decent bloody armour save too. There aren't that many armies that can outshoot Tau as comfortably as you seem to be making out. Yes, Guard can, but guard are y'xa'uuk absurd against anyone thanks to Crudface.
yes, in the new codex Flechettes probably will be different in the new codex, but unfortunately there's a decent chance that they'll be even bloody worse than they already are the way things are going. Yes, they're one of 2 stand out items, but that's not to say that everything else is shtlk, that just means that everything else is reasonable and sensible.
I've said this before, there's a couple of point tweaks needed here and there sure, but by and large the Tau don't really need anything apart from a flier/anti-flier capability and maybe a couple of shiny new sensible weapons. Exactly what the 'Nids needed before Crudface got his hands on them. So let's hope he doesn't get the Tau. :P
Tau do have average if not below average shooting these days. The ability to lower cover saves or reduce pinning tests has a 50% chance to miss and costs 30points so it
Quote from: Wargamer on December 02, 2012, 09:53:16 PM
Jayne, on the "Flechettes are fired by computers" front... why are Drones only Initiative 4? They are computers, so surely they should be Initiative 10 at the least?
So, we know Tau AI controlled units are I4. Ergo, the Flechettes should be I4 at most.
It's the difference between setting of an explosive charge when you detect movement, and coming up with a combat strategy on the fly. It is a huge difference in the real world.
The initiative stat doesn't matter, and as the rest of the 6th Edition rule set has shown us, neither does any common sense argument. The rules say flechette launches fire before blows are struck, therefore they do. Details of how they can react so fast are irrelevant.
The flechette launchers are NOT unique or uniquely broken within the game. The Grey Knights' cleansing flame also fires before blows are struck in close combat, and I believe it wounds every model in the entire squad, not just half of the models who get to swing. Yes, flechette launchers are dangerous to some armies, but a well designed list will be able to work around that. Daemons can use monstrous creatures or breath of chaos. Eldar of either shade can use lances. Tyranids can assault with monsters or shoot with zoanthropes. Orks can use armoured nobs, weirdboy psychic powers, and various other tools. Space Marines, as mentioned, probably don't give a shit about the flechette launchers in the first place!
Grey Knights are hardly a place to go to back up your arguments, given that the Codex was so insulting to the gaming community on every level it was cart-blanche banned from our gaming club. It barely counts as a 40K Codex, it's that far out of kilter with the rest of the game.
Quote from: Wargamer on December 03, 2012, 12:31:58 AM
Grey Knights are hardly a place to go to back up your arguments, given that the Codex was so insulting to the gaming community on every level it was cart-blanche banned from our gaming club. It barely counts as a 40K Codex, it's that far out of kilter with the rest of the game.
I won't dispute that the Grey Knights codex is an abomination, but most of us do not have the luxury of picking and choosing which codices are allowed. At the places I play, there is no such consensus, unfortunately.
It's entirely possible that there are other examples of things that happen "before anything else", but that's the one I could think of.
Quote from: Pottsey on December 02, 2012, 10:46:21 PM
Tau do have average if not below average shooting these days. The ability to lower cover saves or reduce pinning tests has a 50% chance to miss and costs 30points so it
I think the launchers are both more and less useful this edition.
More, as it makes assaults even more dubious given the whole random assault range, but less useful as there are even fewer assaults that people are making...
Best,
-BT
Except those 2 units of pathfinders MUST take Devilfish, which rapidly increases the cost. Yes you can give it to somebody be else. But what competant player allows pathfinders to run around freely? The effects of markerlights are a major concern for an enemy, so some template or heavy bolted fire will reduce them rapidly. And of course they can't move and fire properly.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 03, 2012, 05:17:32 PM
Except those 2 units of pathfinders MUST take Devilfish, which rapidly increases the cost. Yes you can give it to somebody be else. But what competant player allows pathfinders to run around freely? The effects of markerlights are a major concern for an enemy, so some template or heavy bolted fire will reduce them rapidly. And of course they can't move and fire properly.
I'm going to tell you exactly what everyone who plays a gunline tell me when I point out I've no chance this edition. There is such a thing as cover. It won't help you as much as it helps my army, because you have better armour in the first place, but it will should enough. Especially if you take a "Stealth'O" or whatever they're called with the Pathfinders.
I notice that I am being required to add more and more stuff to this unit to make it as bad as it seems. Now I need to add a Shas'O battlesuit, although I don't know how to make one Stealth. Only Shadowsun is a Stealth Shas'O and she cant join other units.
If Pathfinders had the Stealth Rule and didn't need a Devilfish, I would agree that they are nasty, but they are too restrictive and points hungry as they are to give space over to.
Now Tetras, they are worth taking. I have 2 and they are proving to be very effective.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 03, 2012, 10:39:35 PM
I notice that I am being required to add more and more stuff to this unit to make it as bad as it seems. Now I need to add a Shas'O battlesuit, although I don't know how to make one Stealth. Only Shadowsun is a Stealth Shas'O and she cant join other units.
If Pathfinders had the Stealth Rule and didn't need a Devilfish, I would agree that they are nasty, but they are too restrictive and points hungry as they are to give space over to.
Now Tetras, they are worth taking. I have 2 and they are proving to be very effective.
Not at all, I'm simply pointing out that the Tau forces are nothing like as weak or mediocre as they are being made out to be by some. They do have very, very good options, some of which are unique to them. As such, I see no reason for their vehicles to receive average armour AND the best vehicle defences in the game vs both shooting and combat.
Then of course there's the pricing, which as I've pointed out is way off when you compare the effectiveness of these upgrades. Especially when you include the survivability of the respective vehicles without these upgrades in the comparison.
THAT is why I object to these upgrades, what they do, and how much they cost. If you can justify why Tau should reap ALL the benefits for their vehicles, which Dark Eldar and Orks lose theirs, bearing in mind that the latter 2 require their transports far more in order to reach combat and function as an army, then feel free to do so.
Well as has been said, the Orks and DE are substantially newer codexes. The Tau aren't reaping benefits, they just have what they have always had. A total update isn't something that they are going to do in an FAQ after all.
Fluff wise, they work. The Tau don't see anything as expendable after all. DE rather get off on pain and the Orks. . .well they're Orks.
Replacing vehicles is expensive, it is easier to save them in the first place.
As has been pointed out though, the Dpod has a glaring hole in it's defences, and as you are playing against Tau you REALLY should be getting into that zone where it no longer works. Then just Melta/Lance/Whatever untill the thing is dead. The 5+ cover save there is universal for everyone.
Up close is always the Taus weakness. Get inside the Dpods field and slag the tank. Get close enough and then charge the Firewarriors/Pathfinders. Expect to lose a few units on the way.
If your running a Hellion based army, you should be faster than most opponants and able to make use of that speed to negate the advantages as much as possible.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 04, 2012, 04:42:04 AM
Well as has been said, the Orks and DE are substantially newer codexes. The Tau aren't reaping benefits, they just have what they have always had. A total update isn't something that they are going to do in an FAQ after all.
Fluff wise, they work. The Tau don't see anything as expendable after all. DE rather get off on pain and the Orks. . .well they're Orks.
Replacing vehicles is expensive, it is easier to save them in the first place.
As has been pointed out though, the Dpod has a glaring hole in it's defences, and as you are playing against Tau you REALLY should be getting into that zone where it no longer works. Then just Melta/Lance/Whatever untill the thing is dead. The 5+ cover save there is universal for everyone.
Up close is always the Taus weakness. Get inside the Dpods field and slag the tank. Get close enough and then charge the Firewarriors/Pathfinders. Expect to lose a few units on the way.
If your running a Hellion based army, you should be faster than most opponants and able to make use of that speed to negate the advantages as much as possible.
Yes, the Disruption pod has a weakness, but that doesn't mean it's any less absurd. Hammerheads with 3+ cover saves just because they've moved 1" and are sat at the back of the board is beyond ridiculous.
As for getting within 12", that's all well and good IF you can get there. Frankly, unless you're playing Marines that's pretty damned difficult this edition. I've had multiple games with my Dark Eldar where only 1 unit has made it into combat, and they were lucky to manage that. The games were over turn 2. Hell, I've had 1 game where I didn't even manage that. 12" range is not as easy to reach as you seem to think, especially if the Tau player sets up half-sensibly.
Also, as you've just pointed out, up close is supposed to be the Tau's weakness, Flechettes go against that to the point where it's not even funny. A race that sucks up close and in combat should NOT be getting the best vehicle upgrade to deal with being attacked in combat. I know it's an old codex, but that just makes it even worse to be honest. If they're absurd for their cost and by cmparison to similar upgrades now, when combat's been nerfed and most things are cheaper then they were abhorrent previously. If the whole point of your army is that you suck in combat then you should NOT be able to wipe half a unit of Genestealers/Wyches etc before they even get to strike unless they've charged through terrain.
Oh, and with regards to the "They'll be overwatch in the next codex" theory, the only vehicles that can fire Overwatch are Walkers, which Tau don't have.
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on December 04, 2012, 01:12:26 PM
Oh, and with regards to the "They'll be overwatch in the next codex" theory, the only vehicles that can fire Overwatch are Walkers, which Tau don't have.
Unless it's part of the wargear's rules... Personally, it would be worth it's current cost if they just left it as a Wall of Death concept and left it at that.
The thing is, the Flechette Discharger is a fundamentally wrong upgrade. It would be akin to, say, Imperial Guard being given Terminator Armour and then taking it away from Space Marines. The Tau are not meant to have up-close options, yet their vehicles have one of the most deadly close-combat upgrades around. The fact that it is hands down the best of these 'punish the attacker' upgrades is just salt in the wound. It needs to either have its price slammed through the roof to make it seriously unpalatable, or have its stats nerfed to hell.
Why make it an insulting option? If you are going to do that just scrap it.
It fits the Tau mentality perfectly. We cannot fight, we dont like fighting up close. We make things that keep people the hell away so we dont have to fight. However strapping what amounts to small explosives on anything less than a battle suit is basicly suicide, so only vehicles get them.
I dont have an issue with a reasonable price rise, or a reduction to a 5+. But making them stupidly expensive or so ineffective they arent worth taking just screams of "I hate that I can't have this" or "This makes it too hard for me to win".
There is alot of broken stuff out there, and like it or not, its legal. Find a way around it. I have never in all my games ever said "well you can do that which seems really unfair coz I cant.". I find away to deal with it.
Best way to beat Flachettes? Melta guns. Get inside that 12" zone and open up without getting into assault. Or dont DE have some Haywire gun thing? That works too. At less than 12" you only have to worry about the standard Jink save. Otherwise if your tactics arent working, change them. Be flexible. Flachettes are not a game breaker. They do not render everything useless. Mybe they are an inconveniance sometimes, but that is what they are FOR.
I havnt seen anyone complaining about Terminators since they became immune to powerswords, and that is a MAJOR change that affects far more people that the last 3 dozen Tau players.
Flachettes will change. And they will be what they will be, maybe they will suck. Maybe they will get scrapped altogether. Maybe they will cost 25 points and work as they do now. Who knows? But right now they work as they do for the low cost of them and they need to be worked around. Nerfing them to hell or making them prohibitavly expensive is just poor gamesmanship.
Jayne, the reason people don't complain is Terminators had a 3++ Invun anyway, so they really haven't changed much. ::)
But seriously, people do complain about Terminators. I was shocked when the Chaos Codex didn't give them a cost increase to counter their indirect power boost. Thing is, your argument of "it's legal, deal with it" is a god-awful answer, because the way you 'deal' with that is to simply walk away from the game. Units need to be balanced, because otherwise it's a game won by who bought the right army, and that is not a satisfying mechanic. I'm already getting sick and tired of how underpowered mainline infantry feel; it seems my Tac Squads or Guard Platoons never do anything except die, and the game is pretty much riding on all the other force org slots. Back in previous Editions, Troops really carried the day for me time and again.
But anyway, that is wandering off onto a tangent. The Flechette needs to be balanced for this Edition, and GW's attitude of "we'll do it in eight years" is not helpful. At all.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 05, 2012, 09:28:46 AM
I dont have an issue with a reasonable price rise, or a reduction to a 5+. But making them stupidly expensive or so ineffective they arent worth taking just screams of "I hate that I can't have this" or "This makes it too hard for me to win".
There is alot of broken stuff out there, and like it or not, its legal. Find a way around it. I have never in all my games ever said "well you can do that which seems really unfair coz I cant.". I find away to deal with it.
Best way to beat Flachettes? Melta guns. Get inside that 12" zone and open up without getting into assault. Or dont DE have some Haywire gun thing? That works too. At less than 12" you only have to worry about the standard Jink save. Otherwise if your tactics arent working, change them. Be flexible. Flachettes are not a game breaker. They do not render everything useless. Mybe they are an inconveniance sometimes, but that is what they are FOR.
I havnt seen anyone complaining about Terminators since they became immune to powerswords, and that is a MAJOR change that affects far more people that the last 3 dozen Tau players.
Flachettes will change. And they will be what they will be, maybe they will suck. Maybe they will get scrapped altogether. Maybe they will cost 25 points and work as they do now. Who knows? But right now they work as they do for the low cost of them and they need to be worked around. Nerfing them to hell or making them prohibitavly expensive is just poor gamesmanship.
5+ would be more reasonable, but they'd still need a points increase, just not by as much. If they were 10pts, wound on 5+ and strike simultaneously with whatever, fair enough. Sadly, they're cheaper, faster and wound more easily, which is why they're absurd.
Again, I pointed out the flaw with meltaguns earlier. Getting into 12" range is NOT as easy as it's being made out to be. I play a Hellion/Wych list at 2k, with the Wyches mounted, and I have still struggled like hell this edition to make it into close range. In one game I even started with Feel No Pain and it STILL wasn't enough. Unless you play MEQ you're not making it into 12", you might even struggle then.
As for the Haywires, yes Dark Eldar have those. Almost 150pts to get 2 in a 5 man unit though and the D-pod means you may as well not bother with the 2 frankly, so you need 4, which means a 10 man unit. Which is the best part of 300pts for the ability to inflict 1 damage result a turn (average) on a single bloody Devilfish/Piranha/Hammerhead IF you get into range. Oh, and that damage result would almost certainly be a glancing.
Flechettes alone are not a game breaker, no, but they do far too much given which race has them and how much they cost. Couple that with the D-pod and Tau vehicles are absurd to bring down because suddenly they have the best defences against everything for next to nothing and they start with decent armour anyway. (apart from Piranhas)
Actually, that's an interesting point. Restricting the availability of these so that you could only take Disruption Pods OR Flechettes would go along way to balancing them, and would mean that they wouldn't need to change too much because then your opponent would have ways to bring down vehicles without having to throw all his anti-tank into 1 a turn and hope like hell that you roll badly.
Yeah, I don't see that last one happening at all, not with how most vehicle upgrades have gon in both CSM and 5th Edition.
The funny thing here is that I never heard of complaints against them before now, and they really haven't changed one bit in 6th. They still suffer from the same weaknesses and still have the same strengths.
The biggest weakness with them is this: most things that Assault your vehicle will have the armor to survive it, and by that, I mean a Marine. Yeah, some Eldar will have issues with them, but Orks are the ones that are screwed the most by them. 'Nids usually use a Monstrous Creature for Assault, and Eldar usually have more than one person with an AT attack in the Assault. Tau and Necrons would prefer to shoot them in most cases, anyway. But Orks are the only ones with both a strong AT melee weapon and low armour, so they're the most screwed in these situations.
Interestingly, it's not the flechettes themselves that have changed, but the game balance itself and the disruption pods. In 5th edition, defeating vehicles was about equally possible with melee and ranged. In 4th it was all about ranged since you hit the nearest armor facing in melee. Now, because of the improved disruption pods, killing Tau vehicles is all about melee. That makes the flechette launcher a lot more useful than it used to be. Still, as Charistoph and others have said, it's dangerous against some armies, useless against others.
But even the armies that have trouble against it have a way around. You can get inside the disruption pod's range and shoot, you can have more than one guy with the vehicle-killing punch, or you can zap it with a psychic power. Oh, and I would add Chaos Daemons to the list of armies that would have problems against a flechette-equipped vehicle. My daemon list does most of its vehicle killing with Daemonettes, but there are other options. Heralds and Monsters can safely weather the Storm of Pointy Things, or breath of chaos can glance it to death and not worry about the cover save.
Had a thought about the flechette dischargers.
Since they are indeed packets of fragmentation explosives strapped around the hull... And a means for a long-ranged fighter to try and get out of a sticky situation where the enemy has gotten close. That makes it a last-ditch, somewhat desperate measure, and the rules could be made to reflect that.
What do folks think of the idea of balancing it by having flechette dischargers potentially cause a Glance to the vehicle that uses them? (Representing, something sav'y'xa'uk up in the installment, mixture, or detonation of the explosives, and so the explosive force doesn't just hurl shrapnel but damages the vehicle too.)
Say, a devilfish gets charged by an IG blob squad and so it shoots off its flechette dischargers.
Have the upgrade work as normal, but also roll a d6. On a 2+ (3+?) it's fine, but if it rolls under that, the 'Fish takes a glancing hit.
That way, taking and using a flechette discharger becomes a calculated risk with significant potential drawbacks, without having to axe the thing entirely or make it exorbitantly expensive.
Things that risk damage to friendly units are not things the Tau tend to field though.
I still firmly believe the "flat wound" roll is one of the dumbest aspects of the flechette discharger. I mean, let's consider a few things here:
Guardsman - soft, squishy, easily shredded thing wrapped in a suit of body armour primarily designed to deflect ricochets, shrapnel and low-power kinetic impact (ie: stab wounds). Conclusion: going to get flayed alive.
Space Marine - not very soft, not very squishy, not very easily shredded thing wearing a small tank. Conclusion: Injury will come only through dumb luck, or possibly putting an entire flechette pack into the guy point blank.
Carnifex - 30+ tonnes of chitin, ultra-tough hide and layer upon layer of muscle tissue. Body specially evolved to withstand the most hostile conditions imaginable; a literal living battering ram that can shrug off an entire magazine of weapons fire and keep on coming.
Conclusion: Injury possibly only by lucky hits to the beast's few vulnerable locations. Statistically unlikely to occur.
Wraithlord - Inorganic, eight metre tall walker constructed of psionic super-alloy. No known weakspots. No known vulnerabilities. Body structure paternaturally resilient to compressive, shearing, rotational or stretching forces. Conventional weapons, including kinetic, energy, explosive and thermal weapons utterly useless - nothing short of dedicated anti-tank weapons are capable of damaging its superstructure.
Conclusion: No way in hell should a flechette discharger do anything to this guy.
You see the issue I'm sure. The "poison" mechanic is dubious at the best of times, but when said poison isn't a poison at all, but "a lot of sharp bits of metal", suspension of disbelief walks away in disgust.
The bigger you are, the more you are going to get hit, the more damage you take.
Quote from: Charistoph on December 05, 2012, 04:06:31 PM
Yeah, I don't see that last one happening at all, not with how most vehicle upgrades have gon in both CSM and 5th Edition.
The funny thing here is that I never heard of complaints against them before now, and they really haven't changed one bit in 6th. They still suffer from the same weaknesses and still have the same strengths.
The biggest weakness with them is this: most things that Assault your vehicle will have the armor to survive it, and by that, I mean a Marine. Yeah, some Eldar will have issues with them, but Orks are the ones that are screwed the most by them. 'Nids usually use a Monstrous Creature for Assault, and Eldar usually have more than one person with an AT attack in the Assault. Tau and Necrons would prefer to shoot them in most cases, anyway. But Orks are the only ones with both a strong AT melee weapon and low armour, so they're the most screwed in these situations.
I've always had a problem with them since the first time I played against them way back in 4th. There's no justification whatsoever for an upgrade that cheap to be that good. As I've pointed out, the Dark Eldar equivalent (and supposedly more powerful as it's a new codex) is slower, less likely to wound against a lot of units (S3) and is significantly less likely to hit (Only hits enemy models who roll a 1 to hit, Flechettes auto hit). Oh, and Flechettes always work. If a Dark Eldar vehicle is stunned or Immobilised the enemy hits automatically, so no rolling, so the Dark Eldar don't get their defences, the Tau do. Yet Flechettes cost a measly 5 pts more.
And, no. Most times your opponent won't be a Marine. They're more common, but thy still only make up about half the gamers if you include all the Marine codexes. 'Nids might have a Monstrous Creature, but more often than not it'll be the Genestealers, or maybe even Gaunts with Furious Charge, that are getting busy ripping up tanks while the MC's laugh at infantry, because that's the best way to minimise casualties. Especially as Overwatch is in now. Charge the MC in while the little guys destroy tanks, means your little guys don't get shot on the way in. Oh, but if you want to go down the "your opponent gets a save anyway" then I can always factor that in to show the Envenomed blades are even less effective.
In fact, stuff it. I'll mathhammer the comparison tomorrow and settle this once and for all.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 05, 2012, 10:43:18 PM
The bigger you are, the more you are going to get hit, the more damage you take.
That's a pretty blatant fallacy. Simply because you are hit more times or more often does not necessarily increase the damage said object takes, it only increases the probability it will take damage. However, if your incapable of damaging said object in the first place, then the number of times you are hit with it is irrelevant.
A single flechette cannot pierce the nigh-invulnerable armor of a wraithlord, ergo no amount of flechettes will be capable of piercing said armor as Wargammer has aptly said.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 05, 2012, 10:04:20 PM
Things that risk damage to friendly units are not things the Tau tend to field though.
Neither are things purpose-designed to kill your enemies from up close and personal, though.
I would also point out that although they weren't happy about it, the Tau Empire fielded rail rifles in battle even when the technology was still unrefined and its teething problems were potentially lethal for the firer.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 05, 2012, 10:43:18 PM
The bigger you are, the more you are going to get hit, the more damage you take.
By this reasoning, a frag grenade should do more damage to a Leman Russ or a Tyranid Warrior than it does to a Grot, because the Russ and the Warrior are both way bigger. I'm pretty sure you'll agree that's certainly not true.
I find myself agreeing with the guys comparing Flechette Dischargers to the spiky bits on DE craft. FD's should have a plain old Strength value to wound, not a fixed roll. The idea that a bunch of tiny bits of sharp metal have even odds of injuring a Wraithlord when miniature RPG-7 rounds are almost unable to damage it at all is patently ludicrous.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 05, 2012, 10:43:18 PM
The bigger you are, the more you are going to get hit, the more damage you take.
Yes, which is why people use BB guns to kill elephants; you just need to fire 3-4 at once. ::)
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on December 05, 2012, 10:47:29 PM
Quote from: Charistoph on December 05, 2012, 04:06:31 PM
Yeah, I don't see that last one happening at all, not with how most vehicle upgrades have gon in both CSM and 5th Edition.
The funny thing here is that I never heard of complaints against them before now, and they really haven't changed one bit in 6th. They still suffer from the same weaknesses and still have the same strengths.
The biggest weakness with them is this: most things that Assault your vehicle will have the armor to survive it, and by that, I mean a Marine. Yeah, some Eldar will have issues with them, but Orks are the ones that are screwed the most by them. 'Nids usually use a Monstrous Creature for Assault, and Eldar usually have more than one person with an AT attack in the Assault. Tau and Necrons would prefer to shoot them in most cases, anyway. But Orks are the only ones with both a strong AT melee weapon and low armour, so they're the most screwed in these situations.
I've always had a problem with them since the first time I played against them way back in 4th. There's no justification whatsoever for an upgrade that cheap to be that good. As I've pointed out, the Dark Eldar equivalent (and supposedly more powerful as it's a new codex) is slower, less likely to wound against a lot of units (S3) and is significantly less likely to hit (Only hits enemy models who roll a 1 to hit, Flechettes auto hit). Oh, and Flechettes always work. If a Dark Eldar vehicle is stunned or Immobilised the enemy hits automatically, so no rolling, so the Dark Eldar don't get their defences, the Tau do. Yet Flechettes cost a measly 5 pts more.
And, no. Most times your opponent won't be a Marine. They're more common, but thy still only make up about half the gamers if you include all the Marine codexes. 'Nids might have a Monstrous Creature, but more often than not it'll be the Genestealers, or maybe even Gaunts with Furious Charge, that are getting busy ripping up tanks while the MC's laugh at infantry, because that's the best way to minimise casualties. Especially as Overwatch is in now. Charge the MC in while the little guys destroy tanks, means your little guys don't get shot on the way in. Oh, but if you want to go down the "your opponent gets a save anyway" then I can always factor that in to show the Envenomed blades are even less effective.
In fact, stuff it. I'll mathhammer the comparison tomorrow and settle this once and for all.
So it's bad because it's better tech than an ancient race provides their people?
And yes, the most common thing to be charging a Tau tank IS a Space Marine, at least in my Meta. That may change when the next Codex: Orks is released, but for now, that's the case. The Dark Eldar in my Meta would rip it apart with Dark Lances, the Eldar with Lances, Tau with any gun, and the Necrons with Gauss. You have a case with Genestealers, but there will always be a few that survive the wave and can get their attack in, and that's assuming the FMC's don't catch them first. Nobs are THE threat for an Ork mob, and if they're taken out, the chances of a Tank dying in Assault are minimalized.
So yeah, I stand by what I said.
Quote from: Wargamer on December 06, 2012, 09:13:18 AM
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 05, 2012, 10:43:18 PM
The bigger you are, the more you are going to get hit, the more damage you take.
Yes, which is why people use BB guns to kill elephants; you just need to fire 3-4 at once. ::)
And that's why we use toy guns in warfare... Oh, wait, not even the Guard use BB Guns (unless you count Shotguns). I would image that a Bouncing Betty would be able to hurt an elephant, though probably not kill (but an elephant isn't likely to have 1 Wound, either).
Ok, as promised, here's the mathhammer
Flechettes vs 10 man Guard squad
10 hits. 5 wounds. 3.333 dead BEFORE they get their attacks.
150% return on investment plus increased odds of survival due to less attacks coming in.
Envenomed Blades vs 10 man guard squad
10 grenade attacks = 1.666 hits, 0.888 wounds. 0.592 dead AFTER their attacks.
0 confirmed kills so 0% return and same odds of survival as attacks have already been resolved.
Flechettes vs 10 man Genestealer squad
10 hits. 5 wounds. 3.333 dead BEFORE their attacks.
420% return on investment, plus increased survival odds for the vehicle.
Envenomed Blades vs 10 man Genestealer unit.
30 attacks = 5 hits. 3.333 wounds. 2.222 dead AFTER their attacks.
560% return on investment. No change to survival odds for vehicle.
Flechette Dischargers vs 10 man Wych squad (with Haywires, otherwise they wouldn't be attacking the vehicle)
10 hits. 5 wounds. 2.5 dead.
240% return on investment. Improved survival odds for the vehicle.
Envenomed Blades vs 10 man Wych squad.
10 attacks. 1.666 hits. 0.888 wounds. 0.444 dead.
0% return on investment. No change to survival odds.
Flechette dischargers vs 10 man Marine squad.
10 hits. 5 wounds. 1.666 dead BEFORE their attacks.
150% return on investment guaranteed, odds are closer to 300%, plus improved survival odds for the vehicle.
Envenomed Blades vs 10 man Marine squad.
10 attacks. 1.666 hits. 0.555 wounds. 0.185 dead AFTER their attacks.
0% return on investment, no change to survival odds for the vehicle.
Flechette Dischargers vs 5 man Terminator unit.
5 hits. 2.5 wounds. 0.416 dead.
0% return on investment.
Envenomed Blades vs 5 man Terminator unit.
10 attacks = 1.666 hits. 0.555 wounds. 0.093 dead.
0% return on investment.
Flechette Dischargers vs 10 Nurgle Marines.
10 hits. 5 wounds. 1.666 dead BEFORE their attacks.
Not sure on the return on investment, but over 100%, decent chance of over 200%, plus improved survival odds.
Evenomed Blades vs 10 Nurgle Marines.
10 attacks = 1.666 hits. 0.278 wounds. 0.093 dead.
0% return on investment. No change in survival odds.
So, in almost every circumstance above, the Flechettes are substantially better, not only in terms of kills, but also in protecting the vehicle they're on.
The one case where Flechettes were better, it was by a similar margin to how much Flechettes won by elsewhere, however as usual, the Blades made no difference to the vehicle's survival chances.
When the margins are as big as they are, and it's striking first, there's no excuse AT ALL for Flechettes to be as they are.
That is actually something very important to remember here; Flechettes are reducing the number of incoming attacks the vehicle receives with every successful kill they make. Even if it had the same rules as Envenomed Blades, that's a bonus that can make a big difference. If you opponent is relying on, say, five Krak Grenades to kill your vehicle, then killing one or two of those grenadiers before they can hit could save your vehicle, whereas the Blades are basically a 'take you down with me' option.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't preotecting the vehicle the WHOLE POINT? A defensive mechanism that goes off after your hull has been caved in isn't much good to anyone.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 06, 2012, 06:41:18 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't preotecting the vehicle the WHOLE POINT? A defensive mechanism that goes off after your hull has been caved in isn't much good to anyone.
That's
exactly the point I've been making. The Flechettes protect the vehicle better in combat than anything else around, or that has been around. Add that into the fact that they're also significantly better at inflicting damage than comparative equipment and there is absolutely no argument that Flechettes are both overpowered and undercosted.
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on December 06, 2012, 07:10:31 PM
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 06, 2012, 06:41:18 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't preotecting the vehicle the WHOLE POINT? A defensive mechanism that goes off after your hull has been caved in isn't much good to anyone.
That's exactly the point I've been making. The Flechettes protect the vehicle better in combat than anything else around, or that has been around. Add that into the fact that they're also significantly better at inflicting damage than comparative equipment and there is absolutely no argument that Flechettes are both overpowered and undercosted.
My concern is in my experance and thanks to glance death most my vehicles die to shooting and not assaults. Last time any of my tau vehicles I can recall got assaulted was way back in 4th when rending was overpowered. Keeping in mind with my play style I rarely put my vehicles in the postion to get assaulted and I do tend to jump out my Vehicle's to cause rapid fire death. I almost forgot I should count getting assaulted by a bloodthirster, winged hive tyrant, and trygon.
I see your point, and think you made a nice sell, but that is a gun drone or fire warrior I can field. If these assaults happen a lot than I can see. Also if it went back to if you tank shocked units I can see it being helpful.
I see this as one of those arguments like taking rough riders in your guard force. I love them and one day i will use them, but you have Vendettas, Armoured Sentinals, Bane Wolf, and or Hellhound you can use over them and in differant ways are better than using Rough Riders. Not to mention their weapons are ap 3 which diminishes using them even more so.