Are flechette dischargers on a Tau vehicle useful?

[salamut2202]

Carried on from the general enclave thread

[Cammerz]

Well I did a tournament recently and I had a single Hammerhead with flechette dischargers. My Hammerhead survived most battles because I told my opponent that I had them so they didn't even attempt to charge it (except the other Tau player I faced who threw Farsight at it late in the game).
Its quite possible that all of the marine players who didn't charge it were worried that it was more powerful than it actually is, but who was I to correct them? They didn't asky, they just assumed they knew.

Looking at the actual rules, I'd say they do best against horde armies. If a load of genestealers charged into your tank then you'd be happy to have spent the points, a squad of TH-SS terminators on the other hand would probably just walk right through it.

[knightperson]

I think they are. I haven't used them yet, but in 6th Edition Flechette Launchers are a much better investment than they were previously. While I have my disagreements with 6th Ed, I think I understand why they made vehicles so easy to hit in melee: to balance out how weak melee is against other things. That being the case, any decently balanced list is likely going to use assault to defeat vehicles since they so often have cover saves (excellent ones for Tau skimmers) against shooting. I think a Tau vehicle with both the disruption pod and the flechette launchers would be pretty frustrating for an opponent. "If I shoot it, he'll just take that 3+ cover save, but if I assault it 1/3 or so of my guys are going to die before they swing at it." With an equation like that, it kinda makes sense that an opponent would just ignore the vehicle and concentrate on targets he can actually damage!

Of course, the details of the assaulting force, particularly its armor save, will make quite a difference. Terminators won't worry about it at all, nor will any kind of multi-wound monstrous creature. Something like a Daemonic Herald of Khorne on a chariot probably won't be intimidated either. A Space Marine tactical squad would probably think about it for a moment and still charge since they would only lose 1 of every 6 models on average. If you're lucky that one model might be the guy with the melta bomb or powerfist as you would have to roll for each type of model separately. (Right? I'm pretty sure the description of flechette launchers says A MODEL...)  However, a horde unit that is otherwise very good at taking vehicles would be at a huge disadvantage. Genestealers and other Tyranids, Orcs, and most flavors of Daemon would be a losing proposition in assault against flechette launchers! With my Daemon lists, I often charge vehicles with Daemonettes, and an unsoftened squad of them can easily kill any vehicle with a rear armor of 10. (Note to self, run the math of trying for the rend against one of the heavier Leman Russes with their 11 rear armor.) But I would definitely not charge a flechette-equipped vehicle with them unless I was fairly desperate. Of course, that's why I run lots of Breath of Chaos. 

[Scout Sergeant Mkoll]

Frankly, in my opinion, Flechettes were the most broken upgrade available to a vehicle in 5th edition, especially given their points cost. This edition they're second to Disruption Pods.

The reason Flechettes are so absurd is simple. They automatically hit, wound on a 4+ regardless and ALWAYS strike first. This means that for a measly 10 points you're taking out half a genestealer unit, or half a Wych unit. 1 of either of those will cost more than the upgrade, never mind half a squad worth. Add in that both those example units have a significantly higher Initiative than any Tau unit and they're ridiculous.

Then, compare them to Envenomed Blades for Dark Eldar vehicles. 5pts, but has a fixed Strength value, strikes AFTER the attacks are made against the vehicle despite the high Initiative of Dark Eldar, and only causes a hit if your opponent rolls a 1.

The 2 don't even come close to being equal, yet there's a measly 5pts in difference, bearing in mind that this edition Dark Eldar lost the combat advantage they had for being Fast. So yes, Flechettes are worth it, in fact they are too good for their points. FAR too good, and I sincerely hope that they, and Disruption Pods get fixed in the next Tau codex, because neither of them should be costing less than 20pts in my opinion.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

What does the Initiave of the parent race have to do with ANYTHING here? Thats just suggesting that the Tau need to make intentionally sluggish computers. No matter how fast you are, you have to get to the vehicle first. As you approach the sensor find you and blast you with shards of metal. You can be I10, but unless you are incorporeal, you are STILL having to walk through a wall of shrapnel.

The DE dex is a late 5 early 6th dex. The Tau dex is an early 4th. OF COURSE there are going to be points differences and a change in power balance.

The Tau are NOT dark Eldar. I can't get annoyed at not being able to reduce my enemies weapons range, Or the ability to field loads of Lances. You have Lances, I have Railguns. You have Envenomed Blades, I have Flachettes. You have I6, I only have I2. You have WS(4?) I have WS2.

Swings and roundabouts. There are pros and cons to every army. Nowadays the only unique things the Tau have going for them is the ability to Shroud most of their army.

I fully agree that Dpod need a points boost. But some of the vehicles, Fish included need a serious points drop. And Flachettes could use a rework. But Tau is now (I think) the oldest codex out there, so it is going to start standing out as not normal.

[Scout Sergeant Mkoll]

What does the Initiave of the parent race have to do with ANYTHING here? Thats just suggesting that the Tau need to make intentionally sluggish computers. No matter how fast you are, you have to get to the vehicle first. As you approach the sensor find you and blast you with shards of metal. You can be I10, but unless you are incorporeal, you are STILL having to walk through a wall of shrapnel.

The DE dex is a late 5 early 6th dex. The Tau dex is an early 4th. OF COURSE there are going to be points differences and a change in power balance.

The Tau are NOT dark Eldar. I can't get annoyed at not being able to reduce my enemies weapons range, Or the ability to field loads of Lances. You have Lances, I have Railguns. You have Envenomed Blades, I have Flachettes. You have I6, I only have I2. You have WS(4?) I have WS2.

Swings and roundabouts. There are pros and cons to every army. Nowadays the only unique things the Tau have going for them is the ability to Shroud most of their army.

I fully agree that Dpod need a points boost. But some of the vehicles, Fish included need a serious points drop. And Flachettes could use a rework. But Tau is now (I think) the oldest codex out there, so it is going to start standing out as not normal.

The Initiative matters because it generally shows the limitations of how fast the race can operate and react. I'm fairly sure Crisis Suits etc get an Initiative boost because of the computer. If Tau are capable of making machines that operate at I10 then why aren't their Drones I10? Yes, I'm aware of the description, no I don't see how shrapnel is as likely to harm a Warithrlord or Carnifex as it is likely to wound a bog standard infantry model. It doesn't make sense.

I'm aware that the Tau aren't Dark Eldar, I'm aware that each race has its pros and cons. Envenomed blades were used because they're the only comparable upgrade I can think of off the top of my head that I have the rules and points costs to hand for. However as you pointed out, the Tau weakness is combat, so why do they have arguably the best combat equipment of any vehicle in the game?

Also, NO, the Devilfish does NOT need a "serious" points drop. It needs a tweak, that's about it. Yes, I know it's 20pts more than a Raider as standard, but it has 2pts better armour on Front and Side, and isn't open topped. If you think that doesn't matter, play against anyone with Bolters. Hell, go against a Guard Chimera list. You'll laugh at their Multilasers, the same weapons cripple my vehicles with ease. There is a reason for things costing what they do, and a Devilfish should be around 70pts at the absolute cheapest I reckon.

Also, yes I have Lance weaponry, you have Railguns. Are you seriously trying to tell me that you think Lances are better than a bloody Railgun??? Railgun has better strength, so against anything other than AV14 it needs less to damage, then it's AP1, not 2 so that's ANOTHER +1 on the damage chart. That means against my Ravagers, for example, you Penetrate on a 2+ and get +3 on the damage table, meaning that Ravager is dead on a 3+. By comparison, my Lances need 5+ to Penetrate and only get +1 on the damage chart, so I need 5+ again to destroy the Hammerhead.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

No, I was pointing out that we all have different things and its no use saying "You can do this and I cant!" Lances are far more availiable than Railguns though, and they are hardly a poor weapon.

The function of the Flachette discharger is unique. It is a device that is designed specifically to PREVENT attacks on the vehicle. If it fired after the attacks had been made, it wouldnt serve that function would it? It's a great counter point to the Taus lack of CC ability. "Yes our guys go down faster than an old woman on an ungritted path, but our vehicles can and will mess you up in CC."

[Scout Sergeant Mkoll]

No, I was pointing out that we all have different things and its no use saying "You can do this and I cant!" Lances are far more availiable than Railguns though, and they are hardly a poor weapon.

The function of the Flachette discharger is unique. It is a device that is designed specifically to PREVENT attacks on the vehicle. If it fired after the attacks had been made, it wouldnt serve that function would it? It's a great counter point to the Taus lack of CC ability. "Yes our guys go down faster than an old woman on an ungritted path, but our vehicles can and will mess you up in CC."

Except that's not what I was pointing out. What I was pointing out is that there are similar weapons available for other races which are absolute shite by comparison,especially when you consider the points costs.

Also, yes they would still serve a purpose if they strike after, or even simultaneously as you CAN panic from it, it does counts as wounds in combat, coupled with a potential explosion it can and is likely to cripple units of Genestealers, Wyches, Orks etc. and possibly make them flee, denying an objective, or saving another of your units.

Furthermore, why should Tau be the only race whose vehicle protection strikes first? They're a comparatively new race to the galactic battlefield, who haven't much experience with many races besides Orks and therefore wouldn't know what speeds other races are capable of. Whereas Dark Eldar etc, who have been around for literally millenia haven't thought to put something on their vehicles that triggers before the enemy strikes? It makes no sense.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

Why should Tau have to fit a cookie cutter "works like everybody else" template? Why shouldn't they be different? The Eldar have been around for Millions of years, so why arent they able to automatically beat everyone with vastly superior technology? BEcause that isnt how the game works.

The Tau have what is now mediocre shooting, as every codex seems to have been besed on the idea that Tau are the yardstick for shooting and all new codexes should be able to outshoot them. They have sub par CC abilities. Even with 6th they struggle to get good wins against competant opponants. Once they get a new dex Flachettes will undoubtedly be different. For now they are one of 2 stand out devices next to the Railgun, which isnt as special as it was.

Old Codex, Old Rules. In a new edition it stands out.

[Scout Sergeant Mkoll]

Why should Tau have to fit a cookie cutter "works like everybody else" template? Why shouldn't they be different? The Eldar have been around for Millions of years, so why arent they able to automatically beat everyone with vastly superior technology? BEcause that isnt how the game works.

The Tau have what is now mediocre shooting, as every codex seems to have been besed on the idea that Tau are the yardstick for shooting and all new codexes should be able to outshoot them. They have sub par CC abilities. Even with 6th they struggle to get good wins against competant opponants. Once they get a new dex Flachettes will undoubtedly be different. For now they are one of 2 stand out devices next to the Railgun, which isnt as special as it was.

Old Codex, Old Rules. In a new edition it stands out.

Average shooting? Are you fething kidding me??? Your basic troops have S5 weapons, with an extra 6" range, an extra 3" rapid fire range now, the ability to remove cover saves or reduce leadership, oh, and you have a decent bloody armour save too. There aren't that many armies that can outshoot Tau as comfortably as you seem to be making out. Yes, Guard can, but guard are fucking absurd against anyone thanks to Crudface.

yes, in the new codex Flechettes probably will be different in the new codex, but unfortunately there's a decent chance that they'll be even bloody worse than they already are the way things are going. Yes, they're one of 2 stand out items, but that's not to say that everything else is shit, that just means that everything else is reasonable and sensible.

I've said this before, there's a couple of point tweaks needed here and there sure, but by and large the Tau don't really need anything apart from a flier/anti-flier capability and maybe a couple of shiny new sensible weapons. Exactly what the 'Nids needed before Crudface got his hands on them. So let's hope he doesn't get the Tau.

[Railgun Convention]

Sod this essay, it seems to be impossible to get a word in edgeways here.

I'm just going to say: Meltaguns. Solution to all your anti-tank problems.

[Scout Sergeant Mkoll]

Sod this essay, it seems to be impossible to get a word in edgeways here.

I'm just going to say: Meltaguns. Solution to all your anti-tank problems.

You tried getting a meltagunner into range in this edition? Without having a 3+ save? Furthermore, we don't all have meltaguns. Dark Eldar have similar, but they're lower strength, and only available on expensive, fragile units thus they're rarely taken; Tyranids just don't have similar, neither do Orks IIRC, or Daemons.

[Wargamer]

Jayne, on the "Flechettes are fired by computers" front... why are Drones only Initiative 4? They are computers, so surely they should be Initiative 10 at the least?

So, we know Tau AI controlled units are I4. Ergo, the Flechettes should be I4 at most.

[Pottsey]

Jayne, on the "Flechettes are fired by computers" front... why are Drones only Initiative 4? They are computers, so surely they should be Initiative 10 at the least?

So, we know Tau AI controlled units are I4. Ergo, the Flechettes should be I4 at most.

There is a difference between trying to dodge a drone and trying to dodge a cloud that surrounds your target. Why would a cloud have an initiative, you have to go through the cloud to get to the tank. The way I see it is you get within a certain range trigger a sensor that shoots out a massive cloud.

A drone initiative is not just the sensors reacting to you; it

[Mabbz]

Jayne, on the "Flechettes are fired by computers" front... why are Drones only Initiative 4? They are computers, so surely they should be Initiative 10 at the least?

So, we know Tau AI controlled units are I4. Ergo, the Flechettes should be I4 at most.

Sure they can react at the same time, but a drone reacting involves changing its velocity using thrusters. A flechette discharger just has to fire. When the codex gets updated I fully expect flechettes to be used as a form of overwatch.

The way I see it, flechettes are powerful for what they do, but due to their situational nature and the fact that they almost never actually save the vehicle they are that much of an issue. They might need a slight points increase, but nothing like as much as D-pods. Their increase probably wouldn't even be noticable since most Tau vehicles need a decrease (except maybe the hammerhead).

EDIT: Ninja'd on the initiative issue