Dark Angels Revealed!

[Chicop76]

Well, seeing the pictures I can defend some of the choices that they made while some others I believe needs a little more work.

I actually liked the Bikers, but they stole my old conversion idea of just slightly slanting that feather thing at the back of the bike to give them a sense of motion. I am not angry at this, but just that I am amazed that it took GW this long to think about it. I personally always loved Ravenwing as an army, and I may even buy like some of the Ravenwing Battleforce just because I like them.

As for the Deathwing Knights and Belial, I do not mind them as they are what I always think about when I think Deathwing. With some conversion, the Deathwing Knights can become a cooler looking Assault Terminator. However...................I personally would get Forgeworld Terminators (one of only two times where I would really consider a FW purchase, the first being the autocannon kit for Havocs).

The pimped Landspeeder is interesting as there are two variants of it, and I believed that the one without the plasma cannon is the land speeder that confers Stealth to any friendly unit that is within 12" of the unit. I am not fond of the looks, but I can understand its function in a Ravenwing army. The plasma cannon speeder is fancy but may not be strong at all.

The flyers.......well I need to see the model up close to get a true idea of its beauty/hideousness.

Really, a speeder with a +3 cover save givining camo cloaked models in terrain +2 or +3 cover saves awesome.

Well more info on that Darkshroud from one of the Denmark dudes who had already got the new WD.

Their Bestiary page is also in the WD. The Vengeance version has a heavy bolter and a Plasma Storm battery as standard. Otherwise it is you standard Land Speeder. The Ravenwing Darkshroud version is a Land Speeder with a heavy bolter and it has the Scout USR apparantly. It also has (or has the option for) the 'Icon of Old Caliban' which gives +1 to friendly units within 12" when determining assualt results (not cumulative). The Darkshroud special rule gives the Land Speeder the Shrouded USR and friendly units within 6" gain the Stealth USR (not cumulative, does not affect the Darkshroud itself).

So the Darkshroud is not as nasty as I thought it would be, but still it will become a fixture in quite a number of Ravenwing lists as it is a good support unit that increases their survivability.

That applies to bikes as well, so now with that dumb landspeeder bikes would get a 3+/4+ cover save turbo boosting or moving normally. How durable is that landspeeder? Something like that helping dump +3 cover save bikes in my face is not cool. Depending on how easy it is to kill that model it reminds me of the venomthorpe. While the venomthorpe looks good on paper it screams hey shoot me I'm boosting my whole army. I can see that landspeeder screaming the same thing although the movement of a bike army is pretty scarry.

[crisis_vyper]

That applies to bikes as well, so now with that dumb landspeeder bikes would get a 3+/4+ cover save turbo boosting or moving normally. How durable is that landspeeder? Something like that helping dump +3 cover save bikes in my face is not cool. Depending on how easy it is to kill that model it reminds me of the venomthorpe. While the venomthorpe looks good on paper it screams hey shoot me I'm boosting my whole army. I can see that landspeeder screaming the same thing although the movement of a bike army is pretty scarry.

From the looks of it it is just another land speeder. But I would agree that the Shrouding does help in its survival, and since there is that new Ravenwing unit with plasmas and stuff they will be viable.

[Chicop76]

That applies to bikes as well, so now with that dumb landspeeder bikes would get a 3+/4+ cover save turbo boosting or moving normally. How durable is that landspeeder? Something like that helping dump +3 cover save bikes in my face is not cool. Depending on how easy it is to kill that model it reminds me of the venomthorpe. While the venomthorpe looks good on paper it screams hey shoot me I'm boosting my whole army. I can see that landspeeder screaming the same thing although the movement of a bike army is pretty scarry.

From the looks of it it is just another land speeder. But I would agree that the Shrouding does help in its survival, and since there is that new Ravenwing unit with plasmas and stuff they will be viable.

It's offical. I am going to start running crap with deny cover saves, although my daemons already do that. My issue with that landspeeder I would have to get through a 2+/3+ cover save to kill it. What's worst I bet it cost like 150 points and you can run multiples. The landspeeder is not the problem. It is the stealth on the rest of the army and stealth stacks which means 2 within range can give bikes +2 cover saves. The more I think about it the more I hope it is just a bad rumor. At first I was worried about invisibility, but this is worst. They would be like mobile toughness 5 terminators shooting my army to death. I won't be able to get in combat with them since they can simply move 24" away to safety.

Sigh. This is why I play daemons.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

Im am more curious as to what a "Plasma Storm" is. It stounds nasty.

[salamut2202]

Im am more curious as to what a "Plasma Storm" is. It stounds nasty.

The rumours that I've hear is that it's a long ranged plamsa weapon which shoots in a similar rapid fire style of either small blast heavy 2 or large blast heavy 1.

[crisis_vyper]

That applies to bikes as well, so now with that dumb landspeeder bikes would get a 3+/4+ cover save turbo boosting or moving normally. How durable is that landspeeder? Something like that helping dump +3 cover save bikes in my face is not cool. Depending on how easy it is to kill that model it reminds me of the venomthorpe. While the venomthorpe looks good on paper it screams hey shoot me I'm boosting my whole army. I can see that landspeeder screaming the same thing although the movement of a bike army is pretty scarry.

From the looks of it it is just another land speeder. But I would agree that the Shrouding does help in its survival, and since there is that new Ravenwing unit with plasmas and stuff they will be viable.

It's offical. I am going to start running crap with deny cover saves, although my daemons already do that. My issue with that landspeeder I would have to get through a 2+/3+ cover save to kill it. What's worst I bet it cost like 150 points and you can run multiples. The landspeeder is not the problem. It is the stealth on the rest of the army and stealth stacks which means 2 within range can give bikes +2 cover saves. The more I think about it the more I hope it is just a bad rumor. At first I was worried about invisibility, but this is worst. They would be like mobile toughness 5 terminators shooting my army to death. I won't be able to get in combat with them since they can simply move 24" away to safety.

Sigh. This is why I play daemons.

Um....in theory two Darkshrouds could give each other Stealth and increase their shrouding to 2+ when turboboosting, but the distance means that they would have to be close to within 6" to get those benefits. But Stealth does not stack with Stealth and it would not make a true difference for the other bikers that would be riding alongside the DarkShrouds. And the Shrouding is only for the Darkshroud itself.

Realistically speaking with terrain and such, they would not be able to do that perfect support bubble most of the time as doing so would be very cumbersome and also negates the mobility of the force. In addition, no one is that foolish to put so many units lumped together like that. Even with their saves, any large blast weapon would actually find it lovely to fire at the large formation as the scatter would not truly matter as a result of the 6" restriction to get the bubble of protection.

Anyway, here are some more stuff.

via White Dwarf - Faeit 212

Deathwing Knights
WS:5
T:5 when packed in close together
Smite (one use ability which lasts one turn)
Optional Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport

Deathwing Terminators
1 per 5 may upgrade to the following:
Heavy bolter
Plasma cannon
Assault cannon
Cyclone missile launcher
Optional Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport

Dunno what to make out from this.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

LARGE Blast Plasma weapon? That is just hideous unless it is wildly inaccurate or gets hot on 2s. Small Blast 2 is no big change, and the scatter can make a difference, but a large blast is just going to eradicate anything it touches.

[Chicop76]

That applies to bikes as well, so now with that dumb landspeeder bikes would get a 3+/4+ cover save turbo boosting or moving normally. How durable is that landspeeder? Something like that helping dump +3 cover save bikes in my face is not cool. Depending on how easy it is to kill that model it reminds me of the venomthorpe. While the venomthorpe looks good on paper it screams hey shoot me I'm boosting my whole army. I can see that landspeeder screaming the same thing although the movement of a bike army is pretty scarry.

From the looks of it it is just another land speeder. But I would agree that the Shrouding does help in its survival, and since there is that new Ravenwing unit with plasmas and stuff they will be viable.

It's offical. I am going to start running klkn with deny cover saves, although my daemons already do that. My issue with that landspeeder I would have to get through a 2+/3+ cover save to kill it. What's worst I bet it cost like 150 points and you can run multiples. The landspeeder is not the problem. It is the stealth on the rest of the army and stealth stacks which means 2 within range can give bikes +2 cover saves. The more I think about it the more I hope it is just a bad rumor. At first I was worried about invisibility, but this is worst. They would be like mobile toughness 5 terminators shooting my army to death. I won't be able to get in combat with them since they can simply move 24" away to safety.

Sigh. This is why I play daemons.

Um....in theory two Darkshrouds could give each other Stealth and increase their shrouding to 2+ when turboboosting, but the distance means that they would have to be close to within 6" to get those benefits. But Stealth does not stack with Stealth and it would not make a true difference for the other bikers that would be riding alongside the DarkShrouds. And the Shrouding is only for the Darkshroud itself.

Realistically speaking with terrain and such, they would not be able to do that perfect support bubble most of the time as doing so would be very cumbersome and also negates the mobility of the force. In addition, no one is that foolish to put so many units lumped together like that. Even with their saves, any large blast weapon would actually find it lovely to fire at the large formation as the scatter would not truly matter as a result of the 6" restriction to get the bubble of protection.

Anyway, here are some more stuff.

via White Dwarf - Faeit 212

Deathwing Knights
WS:5
T:5 when packed in close together
Smite (one use ability which lasts one turn)
Optional Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport

Deathwing Terminators
1 per 5 may upgrade to the following:
Heavy bolter
Plasma cannon
Assault cannon
Cyclone missile launcher
Optional Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport

Dunno what to make out from this.

It's nt uncommon look at Fateweaver. As long as on guy is with 6" you good. You don't need the whole unit to be within 6". Last I look staelth stacks. Came upon this issue with camo cloaks and harker both have stealth. I thought it was +1 but the rule says stealth stacks.

[salamut2202]

LARGE Blast Plasma weapon? That is just hideous unless it is wildly inaccurate or gets hot on 2s. Small Blast 2 is no big change, and the scatter can make a difference, but a large blast is just going to eradicate anything it touches.

May I draw you attention to the Necron Doomsday Ark? That it a unit that is also potentially apocalyptic. The Doom of Malan'tai is another example. I don't think a couple of Plasma pies would be that horrendous if priced properly and the stats on the unit that carry's it compensates.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

The Doom is a one target lance shot isnt it? Im not 100% on what the doomsday ark can do, but any AP2 Large Blast needs to cost a bomb.

[salamut2202]

The Doom is a one target lance shot isnt it? Im not 100% on what the doomsday ark can do, but any AP2 Large Blast needs to cost a bomb.

Both the Doom and the Ark can fire off Strength 10 ap 1 pies mate. This is just plasma pie or 2 smaller pies.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

Really? Ouch. I take it back then. I just hope it isnt too avaliable.

[crisis_vyper]

It's nt uncommon look at Fateweaver. As long as on guy is with 6" you good. You don't need the whole unit to be within 6". Last I look staelth stacks. Came upon this issue with camo cloaks and harker both have stealth. I thought it was +1 but the rule says stealth stacks.

Really.....Camo Cloaks does not offer Stealth, it just offers an additional cover save. This is not the same as Stealth special rule.


As for the position of two Stealths stacking, this is what the rulebook says;

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover saves as being 1 point better than normal. Note that this means that a model with the Stealth special rule always has a cover save of at least 6+, even if it is out in the open. This rule is often presented as Stealth (X) where X indicates a specific type of terrain, such as Stealth (Forests) or Stealth (Ruins), If this is the cause , the unit only gains the benefit whilst it is in terrain of the specified type.

Cover saves bonuses from the Shrouded and Stealth special rules are cumulative (to a maximum of a 2+ cover save).

Nowhere did it say that two Stealth rules stack upon one another. Stealth only stacks with Shrouded.

I get the 6" thing too as I used to field Fateweaver before I decided with more heralds. But if you want both of these Darkshrouds to benefit from their own Shrouded and also the Stealth rule that they radiate, they need to be close to one another. A large blast is about 5-6" across, and if it covers partially in the new rules, it counts as a full hit. Also, with the other Ravenwing units they would also need to be 6" of the Darkshroud, which means that that lone guy that keep that chain of stealth dies, the squad will have stealth disappear just like that.

My argument in the first place is not that 6" covers units, that we agree on, but it warrants a lumping strategy which is a sign of weakness where large blast templates are now more common due to the infantry-heavy meta of the moment. 6" is definitely too close for comfort as even with a Marine BS to reduce the scatter, the furthest it could scatter is a whooping 8" which is still deadly. In essence, anything within an 8" minimum is a fair enough target for a large blast template or an ordnance barrage. Putting any more units within that radius is almost foolish and one would always benefit from using other sources of cover to rake up the effects of stealth rather than using two raw Darkshrouds to protect the Ravenwing buddies.

You might say that spreading out is the answer, but most of the time, the terrain would limit the true spreading of an unit and sometimes whether you like it or not, the unit will clump even more closely than initially expected. Not to mention that a large footprint could expose it to Focus Fire and other shenanigans from both shooting and assault assassination techniques.

Fateweaver is unique in that

[Chicop76]

I took the cumulative effect on stealth is the part that allows it to stack. I could be wrong and they could mean only shrounding and stealth is cumulative, but the way it is worded it seems shrounding, shrounding, and stealth would have a cumulative effect. Although it is very rare to pull that off unless you get invisibility. For example putting invisibility on a Harlequin squad to give them a +2 cover save in the open. The max is a +2 cover save.

I will have to re look at the camo cloak, but last I remember it confers stealth which started the whole mess if stealth stacked or not.

I see your point. I am used to doing the 6" thing when I play nids as well. When I run two hive tyrants with the preferred enemy aura my army is not bunched up. I make sure at least on model is within 6" to get the benefit which is a 15" diameter from the tyrant or 16" since I have to measure the base t make sure. Any even with terrain it is not that hard to pull off. Yes some units will be slower or out pace the aura, but the ideal is to protect the bulk of your army.

With the landspeeders being 6" apart might be a bad ideal, but as long as they are giving good army coverage your bikes will have at least a +4 cover save. However if done right units inbetween the models could have a +3 cover save and a +2 cover save on a turbo boost.

The main concern is with the landspeeders the bikes can cover 24" and get that aura in one turn. If your army can't melee the bikers and can't deny cover saves than you have problems.

[crisis_vyper]

I took the cumulative effect on stealth is the part that allows it to stack. I could be wrong and they could mean only shrounding and stealth is cumulative, but the way it is worded it seems shrounding, shrounding, and stealth would have a cumulative effect. Although it is very rare to pull that off unless you get invisibility. For example putting invisibility on a Harlequin squad to give them a +2 cover save in the open. The max is a +2 cover save.

I will have to re look at the camo cloak, but last I remember it confers stealth which started the whole mess if stealth stacked or not.

I see your point. I am used to doing the 6" thing when I play nids as well. When I run two hive tyrants with the preferred enemy aura my army is not bunched up. I make sure at least on model is within 6" to get the benefit which is a 15" diameter from the tyrant or 16" since I have to measure the base t make sure. Any even with terrain it is not that hard to pull off. Yes some units will be slower or out pace the aura, but the ideal is to protect the bulk of your army.

With the landspeeders being 6" apart might be a bad ideal, but as long as they are giving good army coverage your bikes will have at least a +4 cover save. However if done right units inbetween the models could have a +3 cover save and a +2 cover save on a turbo boost.

The main concern is with the landspeeders the bikes can cover 24" and get that aura in one turn. If your army can't melee the bikers and can't deny cover saves than you have problems.

Fair enough. With the new reserve rules and the teleporter homers, the Ravenwing could essentially aid in the deepstrikie of a squad of Deathwing, which could be a problem for most people.