Hey SS,
With the new codex out there have been some major changes. I still don't have my codex... and GW tells me they have yet to ship my order... but they assure me it will come in by the 17th (maybe), so for now I'm just working from memory on the leaked codex pages. This means my overall scope of the army is a little limited, but I think I've got a pretty good idea of what's going on. Clearly, some things have changed.
This brings us to the point of this thread. Among the largest changes I have noticed are the change to mobility (the army has slowed down significantly), the reliance on markerlights (units are really no longer all that self reliant), and the drastic decrease in the number of S10 AP1 weapons we can bring to the field. The last one is of the most concern to me. From what I can tell, our codex is absolutely brimming with options to take out anything except AV13+.
Given that AV13+ is a very popular build in my area with several IG parkinglots, and Necron barge spam lists floating around I'm looking for a way to fill the gap left by the earth caste's decision to make broadsides into anti-flyer/monstrous creature units. So I thought I'd look at our options and the costs in the hopes of finding the most useful counter to AV13+ spam. I'll do my best to include other factors as well... but I'm a little limited for time at the moment.
Lets start where we left off in the last codex... the broadside, the be all and end all of anti-tank.
The broadside now has two options, the heavy rail rifle (HRR), or the high yield missile pods (HYMP).
The HRR broadside is able to glance right the way up to AV14, and pen up to AV13. This is a good start... but with a limited fire rate, we're not going to exactly be bringing the pain to the AV13+ vehicles. Against AV13, the HRR will glance 25% of the time, and destroy the vehicle outright 6.25% of the time... so those are not great odds. What the HRR broadside is good at though is taking down heavy infantry and monstrous creatures! AP1 is great against anything with an armour save, and S8 means that even high toughness monsters are not bothering you too badly. Considering we're in an age of Riptides, dreadknights, and tyranid monster mash lists... it might not be a bad idea to bring a team of these along.
Missiles being S7 make the HYMP great at glancing lighter vehicles to death. A team of 3 should be consistently stripping hull points off of anything AV12 and below with a small chance at chipping down an AV13. However, this build struggles against heavy infantry and monstrous creatures because of the relatively uninteresting AP4. It makes a great light transport hunter, and will do wonders in the anti-flyer department. But it's not what we're looking for for AV13+ (especially since it can't even damage AV14).
So the answer isn't in the broadsides... not cost effectively at any rate. What about the hammerhead? From the looks of things, GW did envision this thing as what anti-tank in the Tau army should be.
So we've got the railhead and the ionhead. Lets start with rail... because it's the only S10 weapon in our army. Well... it's a lot cheaper... which is really nice. But it's identical in anti-tank performance to the old one. We all know the old one's job was anti-infantry with the pie plate... but now that we have such an abundance of AP4 pieplates, and it costs extra, things are different. Naked, it's better at AV13+ than the new broadsides... but only just (against AV13 2 broadsides will likely cost less and be a smidgeon better at exploding the vehicle). Its effectiveness is capped by its lower volume of fire and its immobility. It's the best option for AV14 so far... and pretty on par for AV13...
The ion cannon is now a nice option. It is pretty similar to the the HYMP in that it will be pretty good (as it was) against light tanks and transports... and it will even be alright against the lighter armoured monstrous creatures. The large blast makes it good against MEQ blobs too. We might see more of these around... but I wouldn't predict they will be for anti AV13+.
Longstrike is interesting because he provides some big advantages against guard tanks (the number one supplier of true AV13+ vehicles in the my meta at the moment). He is well balanced... not a must take, but situationally very useful.
That's the end of the heavy support, so lets look at something in the elite section (and HQ)... battlesuits (specifically using the fusion blaster).
These got nastier. The fusion blaster is now 18" meaning they can stay a little safer in melta-ing vehicles. melta is definitely a reliable way of exploding AV13+ vehicles... but the issue will still be getting it there. We have no form of reliable reserve manipulation or precision deepstriking... so getting close enough will be tricky.
More from the elite section we have the Riptide.
I really like it. It'll cost you an arm and a leg, but its versatile thanks to that generator. The burst cannon on its own is fine anti-infantry, but I don't think it's too big a deal. Overcharged it does gain rending and get a billion dice... so it's not bad... the only problem is that a third of the time that generator is going to fail and 12 gets hot! shots are a big risk... for that reason I don't see it as a really practical choice against AV13+.
The ion accelerator is a little more forgiving, and in my opinion the most versatile weapon in the book. The regular mode is an ion cannon equivalent, so it will work against lighter vehicles and transports. The overcharged version is a big blast, so it's great for anti-meq. And the nova version is S9 ordinance! It's risky... no denying it. But I believe, danger aside, that makes it the most effective weapon at exploding AV13+ I've come across so far. It even comes with more fusion blasters :D The downside is that it is very expensive and risks quite a bit of self harm...
So there we have it. I'd like to hear your opinions on the situation. As you can see, I haven't really been able to find an effective way with which to deal with AV13+. Some of the options are better than others... but even the best are still not great at what I'm looking for them to do. Thoughts? Suggestions? Comments?
Don't forget the Riptides Ion Accelerator has a better AP than the regular Ion Cannon. Same as Plasma.
I had a game today where, just to be gittish about the lack of real railguns, my mate took 2 Landraiders. Frankly, I couldn't touch them. I had 3 Fusion Balsters, thanks to a Helios Squad, but it was nowhere near enough. The Redeemer turned around and flamed them into ash.
Fusion Fusion Fusion. That is what we need to do now. By all means get some real railguns up there, and the Heavy Railrifles are actually very nice, you are going to miss S10 when the time comes. Thankfully Fusion has recieved a 6" range boost, so that is helpful at least.
I think the best way we're going to deal with AV13+ is fusion blaster and disruption pod equipped piranha.
I don't know if the melta piranha is a real answer. To be honest I don't like melta as the answer at all...
They did get a nice boost to range... but that is a much larger impact in anti-heavy-infantry (effective from 18" is great!) than for tanks, where the melta range is halved (9"). This means we have to dedicate some thought to how we're going to get our points (and in order to deal with AV13+ spam it will take a lot of points) safely in and out of that situation... and fast...
Now, why the piranha concerns me is a multipart problem. Yes it can get in fast... but it doesn't have a reliable way of getting out again, and it's just too fragile to try to weather the storm of return fire. It's also only BS3... which isn't bad in and of itself, I mean our whole codex is essentially BS3... but where are you upgrading that BS3 from? Markerlights. And where are they coming from? The fast attack section. So now we've got the issue of a pretty poor shot taking up the very slot that is providing that support not just to them but to the whole army. I don't even know if we'd have enough markerlight support to pop enough tanks normally (that would require some study)... Without markerlight support I believe we'd need around 3 piranhas to reliably explode an AV13+ tank, but that's a lot of points to have stuck right in front of the enemy's main battle line (even with a 4+ save).
I think battlesuits are a slightly better choice for this. Though they will need to rely on deepstrike to close the distance (and without any form of reserve manipulation we could be waiting a long time for them if you have a bad roll or two). They do at least get J-S-J and you can twin-link the fusion blaster to help with accuracy. I don't know though... the deepstrike will likely mean you're scattering either outside of melta or even closer into the danger zone. You at least get a second jump to help you out.
These still don't feel like real solutions for me. Makes me really empathize for the sisters of battle. Melta is their only effective way to crack AV13+, they are a slow shooting army. Oh my god... we've become nuns with (better) guns!
Maybe GW will see that and give us armor bane for our railguns. I mean honestly without it we are screwed when we take on a IG with a lot of tanks. If you take two hammerheads with railguns then you know those will be the FIRST thing that will die. The rest of the roster is toast.
That sounds rather overly optimistic to me :P these are the people who looked the other way in 5th edition when the Tau said "Please help... Aun'Va, Shadowsun, Farsight, ethereals, very squish troops, overpriced transports, pathfinders with mandatory overpriced transports, vespid, sniper drones, and the sky ray could really use a fix."
GW isn't big on admitting its mistakes. I think we've got what we're getting and we'd better get dug in and find a way in classic Tau fashion to overcome the shortcomings with what we've got. I have to admit they've made it harder this time round... we're too slow to just run from our problems now.
On the other hand it is OUR hobby... so if we don't like it we can change it. If you're not playing competitive tournaments no one is going to be offended by a custom codex if its balanced (like say... an upgrade that gives broadsides the lance special rule? And my god damn multitrackers on vehicles back!).
I don't think that there is much to worry about. Our CODEX made it important for other armies to run tanks again. In Tourneys it forces people to run balanced list. If someone does spam AV13, there wont be anything else but that when we are done. TAU strategy must be relearned and applied. We have the collective ability to obliterate whole squads. Don't worry, they WILL fear us!
We can accurately deepstirke now if we take pathfinders (Recon Drone has a homing beacon), the only downside is they have to be upclose and personal. It's also avaible on Stealths which is a bit better but is still 100 points to get it. Though that is cheaper and we can give one a fusion as well. I wish stealths had gotten cheaper.
Quote from: Scalphunta on April 08, 2013, 01:45:34 AM
I don't think that there is much to worry about. Our CODEX made it important for other armies to run tanks again. In Tourneys it forces people to run balanced list. If someone does spam AV13, there wont be anything else but that when we are done. TAU strategy must be relearned and applied. We have the collective ability to obliterate whole squads. Don't worry, they WILL fear us!
I'm confused as to why that is reassuring... it's fine to say they will fear it... but what's making them afraid? I tried out an all hammerhead list in 5th (tried to go just a little too mechanized), and the imperial guard player actually laughed out loud that I expected to clear his tanks with 3 BS4 S10 shots and 12 BS4 twin-linked S7 shots, and 8 BS4 meltas, a turn and a handful of S5 shots (I think the list was something like: 2000 points - 3 hammerheads, 6 helios, 6 deathrains, 3 piranhas, 2 fire warrior teams in devilfish). Needless to say, it wasn't enough. And by turn 5 half his tanks were still sitting there pummeling my very diminished battleline.
We need solutions, not optimism.
Quote from: Tybalt Defet on April 08, 2013, 02:03:58 AM
We can accurately deepstirke now if we take pathfinders (Recon Drone has a homing beacon), the only downside is they have to be upclose and personal. It's also avaible on Stealths which is a bit better but is still 100 points to get it. Though that is cheaper and we can give one a fusion as well. I wish stealths had gotten cheaper.
Like you said, the recon drone has to be there in order to use its homing beacon, which suffers the same problem as getting the battlesuits there in the first place. Stealth suits are better... but they need to get in place too. Reserve manipulation still appears to be lacking (no more 2+ to bring in a unit).
Stealth suits may not have gotten cheaper, but what they have got more expensive, so in relative terms they are more valuable. The burst cannon is more expensive now. And they come with a free shield generator on every model... the shield generator is also more expensive. Ta da! Almost worth it!
I wouldn't call stealth and shroud a shield, especially when you're that close but you are right.
It's an automatic 4+ save in everything but combat. And if you're in combat then you might as well just get over with it and let the power weapons wipe out your suits rather than dragging the conflict on into your shooting phase. And 18" really isn't too bad for range; combined with J-S-J its a decently formidable distance for all but the fastest assault troops.
Are people joking saying that their railguns should get armourbane? Tau have as many options against this kind of thing as most armies do.
You also have to consider that the riptide and hammerhead are pretty mobile and the only tank with AV14 on the side is a Land Raider who will be closing with you anyway so your fusion blasters will be easier to get into range. Russ' dont have that on the sides and so you can just get around the flanks.
Besides, you still have a S10 AP1 gun on a very durable tank at good BS. The Riptide has S9 Ordnance which is as good as S10 thanks to rolling 2D6 and picking the highest to pen.
If it comes to it, thanks to his jetpack, the riptide can kick an AV14 tank in combat.
For AV13 the same applies, get around the sides for imperial tanks [or just riptide/hammerhead/broadside/skyray them]. For Barges you can put out enough S8 with broadsides and skyrays to get a pen to reduce its AV. Plus if you do get a pen a heavy rail rifle has a really good shot at killing it thanks to AP1 and open topped.
We also have the item Ongars Gauntlet (I think its called). That gives a single unit huge CC ability againt all vehicles.
Seems signature gear doesn't take up suit hard points either. A commander with shield, fnp, the fist and iridium armour and helios weapons would be a nasty combo. Shame how much he'd cost.
Quote from: KCKitsune on April 08, 2013, 01:01:21 AM
Maybe GW will see that and give us armor bane for our railguns.
I've said this in 2 other threads, I'll say it again here. S10 AP1 weapons do
not need a boost!! I don't care whether it's Armour Bane, Tank Hunter, Lance, whatever, it is not needed on the single most powerful weapon in the game. And no, Rail Rifles don't need Armour Bane either. (either version)
Now, to the issue at hand. I don't play Tau, and frankly I don't plan to, however that doesn't mean that I can't give advice.
The first thing I'll say is that if you're struggling to pack a Hammerhead with Railgun into your list, don't panic and assume that you've lost. As soon as you do that, you have lost. Instead try to deploy your anti-tank units, Broadsides, Piranha etc where they can get down the flanks of the enemy and hit that all important side armour. If your opponent turns to face the main threats your Firewarriors now have side armour. It's not much, but most vehicles can be glanced by Firewarriors, Throw in Pathfinders with Rail Rifles or Suits with Missiles and you should have a decent chance of doing damage.
Secondly, you have the option for Disruption Pods. I know I hated these things last edition, but they seem to have been made sensible this edition so while they may irritate me, it's not through being overpowered, it'll be more through my opponent refusing to fail a save. :P These should be standard gear on any Tau vehicles I think. Hammerheads, Piranhas, wherever you can get them, take them and keep moving. They increase the odds of your Hammerhead/Piranha getting that all-important extra shot away.
Thirdly, as Jayne has pointed out, you now have access to an AP2 Ion Cannon. Admittedly the strength may leave a bit to be desired without Overcharging, but with Markerlights you should be able to make the shots count by boosting BS and/or removing the target's cover.
Quote from: Carrelio on April 08, 2013, 01:21:08 AM
On the other hand it is OUR hobby... so if we don't like it we can change it. If you're not playing competitive tournaments no one is going to be offended by a custom codex if its balanced (like say... an upgrade that gives broadsides the lance special rule?.
Lance upgrade for Broadsides? Balanced? Please, please, please,
please tell me that's a joke.
Something else I might suggest is Seekers. LOTS of them. 2 on every vehicle and 1 on every Broadside. Markerlights are going to be EVERYWHERE now, probably more than you can use in a turn reliably. Use the seekers against anything you can. A couple of Piranhas can get side or even rear armour with a bit of luck. They are 2 points cheaper now, make use of them.
Lance isn't broken on an S8 weapon... it would make them as efficient as they used to be against AV14, without increasing their new level of effectiveness against AV12 and below. I've done the math, I know how to price a piece of wargear... and I find your lack of faith disturbing.
But, since it's clear to me that you are all highly evasive to house rules, and are certain the new rules have us covered, I won't bring the point up again (though I do entirely intend to do it).
Back to the point at hand though... I'm still not convinced about the army's anti-tank ability. I should also point out, I am not posting this to whine about the changes. I don't like them, that's a fact. But I've been playing warhammer for 14 years, and Tau for 8 of them; I want to do everything I can to make sure my army doesn't suck. So lets get back to finding a way to stop the bulk of 10+ AV13+ vehicles by turn 2-3.
The problems I have seen so far are that we've lost our mobility, meaning stopping enemies before they reach our lines is more important than ever... and a decrease of weapons capable to do it. Is there a way of cost effectively and efficiently dealing with AV13+ in the Tau list? The numbers I have crunched say no.
Edit: seekers are about as efficient at taking down vehicles as broadsides... I'll have to run the numbers on that.
Quote from: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on April 08, 2013, 03:33:04 PM
Quote from: KCKitsune on April 08, 2013, 01:01:21 AM
Maybe GW will see that and give us armor bane for our railguns.
I've said this in 2 other threads, I'll say it again here. S10 AP1 weapons do not need a boost!! I don't care whether it's Armour Bane, Tank Hunter, Lance, whatever, it is not needed on the single most powerful weapon in the game. And no, Rail Rifles don't need Armour Bane either. (either version)
Sorry I mean our heavy rail rifles.
I agree that the hammerhead railgun doesn't need any boost what so ever.
One thing this thread confuses me with, mostly because I've been away from gaming for a while...
WHICH ARMY THAT GW HAS RELEASED, CAN TAKE AV13 VEHICLES IN A SPAMMY WAY?!
I know Black Templars can take Land Raiders as Dedicated Transports, and A couple other SM Codexi, but what else can take AV13/14 en masse?
IG can. and Necrons are AV13 untill you actually damage them arent they?
Edit: beat me to it.
Blood Angels can also do it surprisingly well... though people mostly dropped them in my area after the Grey Knights were released.
So its all pretty much anti-Imperial+Necrons tactics?
Surely just plonking two or three units of Broadsides and a Cataclism suit would fulfill such a need, leaving the reast of the Elites, Troops and FA, free to personal Preference.
The Cataclism would probably attract most enemy weapons, and the Broadsides wil take the rest after that.
To deal with everything thats lower then AV13, then I'd probably just take a full complement of Sniper Drone Team(s). Suitably converted of course.
Then ofcourse there is the oiption of just EMP/Haywire Grenading these targets to death with Fire Warriors and Pathfinders (and any other units that can take them).
Orks can take 8 battlewagons if we want to. 7, if we give them all 5+ cover from a big mek. Of course those are AV12 on the sides, but the fronts are still 14.
Sniper Drones can glance AV12 if you get really lucky,
Quote from: Narric on April 08, 2013, 05:56:03 PM
So its all pretty much anti-Imperial+Necrons tactics?
Surely just plonking two or three units of Broadsides and a Cataclism suit would fulfill such a need, leaving the reast of the Elites, Troops and FA, free to personal Preference.
The Cataclism would probably attract most enemy weapons, and the Broadsides wil take the rest after that.
To deal with everything thats lower then AV13, then I'd probably just take a full complement of Sniper Drone Team(s). Suitably converted of course.
Then ofcourse there is the oiption of just EMP/Haywire Grenading these targets to death with Fire Warriors and Pathfinders (and any other units that can take them).
The broadside heavy rail rifle has a 6.25% chance of exploding a vehicle with AV13. They do however have a 25% chance of taking a hull point (or 12.5% against AV14)... with the smart missile pods that's a 50% chance of glancing AV13 and 12.5% chance of glancing AV14. However this puts the unit points per point of damage at 130 points per hull point against AV13, and 520 points per hullpoint against AV14 (looks really big... wonder if my math didn't go wrong at some point... can't spot the error though). It's not exactly cost effective.
Quote from: Carrelio on April 08, 2013, 04:36:47 PM
Lance isn't broken on an S8 weapon... it would make them as efficient as they used to be against AV14, without increasing their new level of effectiveness against AV12 and below. I've done the math, I know how to price a piece of wargear... and I find your lack of faith disturbing.
But, since it's clear to me that you are all highly evasive to house rules, and are certain the new rules have us covered, I won't bring the point up again (though I do entirely intend to do it).
The thing is though, it's not just a S8 weapon. You'd have to factor in that said weapon can be fired at a boosted BS and that said weapon can ignore cover in certain circumstances, making it far more effective than options available to other races and therefore far more difficult to price. I know some will argue that additional cost is already covered by the cost of the markerlights, but I believe that to grant such a boost some additional cost should be conferred to the upgrade.
I personally have no issue with House Rules when done properly, I've tried writing them myself when my beloved Tyranids were nerfed into oblivion. The problem with House Rules is getting other people to accept you using them, which would only become a larger problem the more you won.
As for suggestions, I've already made 3 suggestions, of varying effectiveness. Another I'd make is Piranha with Fusion Blasters. Ok, they're not overly survivable, but they'll get in quickly enough to do the job, they're cheap enough to be expendable or can be upgraded to have a it more survivability and all importantly they have the manoeuvrability to get those side armour shots or force your opponent to retreat/turn his side to other units.
Another option which I had to wait until I actually saw the codex to mention, Shadowsun + Stealth team. Survivable enough to get close if they use terrain to their advantage, fairly costly, but with a minimum of 2 Fusion blasters at minimum plus enough burst cannon fire to put off a fair few units they can get the job done well enough and probably live to tell the tale.
Why are we whining about what the enemy can field? The cataclysm suit will draw a lot of fire, but we can also dish it out. Modify your crisis suits to have fusion, run 2 teams of stealth with fusion, throw in 40 kroot, keep 2 Hammerheads, 1 Ion Head and the Cataclysm. That's a lot for them to worry about! The point is our suits should sway more to anti-tank to deal with AV13 Spam. The new items are not the cure-all but if you don't forget to have your army working together (in true Tau form), you should be good.
The only armies that can't run at least 3 armour 13 vehicles and higher are these 3. Tyranids and both eldar armies. Although Dark Eldar can get 1 vehicle that fits in said category.
Most other armies can at least field 3 or more. The human armies besides sisters and grey knights can field 6 or more of said vehicles.
I might spam 3 soul grinders now.
We're not whining about what the enemy can field; don't misinterpret. I don't care if the other person can bring 30 land raiders full of Grey Knights riding flying hive tyrants to a 500 point game... So long as we have the tools to deal with them. If we just look the other way and say our army is perfect, sure we feel warm and fuzzy, but we'll lose 100% of the time. The purpose isn't to whine but to find a real solution to real tactical issues in our army list.
Now that said... I understand where the rest of you are coming from. Tau got a brand new codex; it's full of awesome new stuff. We have nothing to complain about. Maybe you are all correct and we are going to go out there and stomp all over AV13+. Maybe I've missed something in the rules, given that my codex is currently a strung together series of spanish photos. Whatever the case, it looks to me like everyone out there thinks the case is closed and Tau are going to do just fine... so I'll leave it there and won't pursue the issue any further here.
Quote from: Chicop76 on April 08, 2013, 11:37:06 PMAlthough Dark Eldar can get 1 vehicle that fits in said category.
Most other armies can at least field 3 or more. The human armies besides sisters and grey knights can field 6 or more of said vehicles.
...no they can't. Dark Eldar highest armour is 11 unless you're referring to something from Forgeworld which, frankly, doesn't count as it's not legal without permission anyway.
As for "most" armies being able to spam AV13+, Marines can, but they're easily taken care of by getting around the sides. Chaos...from what I remember that's pretty much same as Marines. Flank and laugh. Orks I don't see enough of to judge accurately unfortunately so I don't know. Guard and Necrons can certainly, but they're both made of Cheddar stuffed with Brie and topped with Camembert.
So there's 3 armies which physically can't spam the kind of thing that this thread's addressing, another 2 who can very easily be dealt with by flanking (Vindicators especially), one I'm unsure of. Land Raider spam should mean that the culprit gets massacred as soon as he disembarks by Overwatch and then EMP greandes (there should be some of those lying around somewhere), so that just leaves Guard and Necrons, which as I've pointed out are insane anyway and everyone struggles with.
Quote from: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on April 08, 2013, 11:50:37 PM
Quote from: Chicop76 on April 08, 2013, 11:37:06 PMAlthough Dark Eldar can get 1 vehicle that fits in said category.
Most other armies can at least field 3 or more. The human armies besides sisters and grey knights can field 6 or more of said vehicles.
As for "most" armies being able to spam AV13+, Marines can, but they're easily taken care of by getting around the sides. Chaos...from what I remember that's pretty much same as Marines. Flank and laugh. Orks I don't see enough of to judge accurately unfortunately so I don't know. Guard and Necrons can certainly, but they're both made of Cheddar stuffed with Brie and topped with Camembert.
My local Ork player likes to use both AV14 tanks with custom force fields or rows of Ork dreadnoughts on the front lines, sometimes both. Not every game but I can confirm some Ork players use high AV builds. EMP's are out of the question as if you are close enough to do that the tank has done its job and tons of Orks disembark to CC you.
This is why I am concerned about the change as I struggled with s10 broadsides in squads. So now it is going to be massively harder to deal with as you have to stop them before they get into CC range.
Actually, shadowsun isn't bad now. And with her Warlord Trait, she and her squad will get to move 3d6 in the assault phase with their jet packs. They could cover ground very rapidly and bring 4 Fusion Blasters to bear.
Quote from: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on April 08, 2013, 11:50:37 PM
Quote from: Chicop76 on April 08, 2013, 11:37:06 PMAlthough Dark Eldar can get 1 vehicle that fits in said category.
Most other armies can at least field 3 or more. The human armies besides sisters and grey knights can field 6 or more of said vehicles.
...no they can't. Dark Eldar highest armour is 11 unless you're referring to something from Forgeworld which, frankly, doesn't count as it's not legal without permission anyway.
As for "most" armies being able to spam AV13+, Marines can, but they're easily taken care of by getting around the sides. Chaos...from what I remember that's pretty much same as Marines. Flank and laugh. Orks I don't see enough of to judge accurately unfortunately so I don't know. Guard and Necrons can certainly, but they're both made of Cheddar stuffed with Brie and topped with Camembert.
So there's 3 armies which physically can't spam the kind of thing that this thread's addressing, another 2 who can very easily be dealt with by flanking (Vindicators especially), one I'm unsure of. Land Raider spam should mean that the culprit gets massacred as soon as he disembarks by Overwatch and then EMP greandes (there should be some of those lying around somewhere), so that just leaves Guard and Necrons, which as I've pointed out are insane anyway and everyone struggles with.
In the regular Dark Eldar codex you can take an armour 13 or 14 raider for roughly 500 points. I included vect and the nine guys you have to take that's included in the cost.
Ig can run 9 russes easy with front armour 14 and side 13. If the rear is 10 isn'ts not a problem, but rear 11 is a slight problem.
The way I dealt with them in the past is to deep strike 8 man gun drone squad and target locked 4 man melta stealth suits behind vehicles. Taking the pathfinder devilfish helped reduced scatter.
Can you do that now. I don't know since I haven't read the new codex yet. Besides that.not like other armies can dish out a bunch of strength 10 shots. I meam look at tyranids that have 9 strength 10 ap 1 lance shots in the elite slot and 6 strength 10 shots in the heavy. They also get preferred enemy to help hit with those shots.
Guard can only have 9 str 10 pie plates at ap2, while most marine armies have 3 strength 10 ap 2 shots.
Everyone else either doesn't have strength 10 shots or have only 1 or 2 one shot weapons that can do that. I forgot Greyknights and sisters fall in that category, but a vindicator is really better than a strength 10 shot anyway.
I doubt that we will see an over abundance of armour anyway. Daemons flamers and Taus rail guns took a hit which might help more vehicles on the board. Also Dark angel's ability to have +4 invulnerable saves on land raiders which can re roll bad results and vehicles like soul grinders which can easily have a +3 invulnerable save or a +2 invulnerable, I would fear the +2 invulnerable bloodthirster a bit more with the +4 FNP.
Anyway 13 armour spam is an issue since a lot of armies still have str 9 shots which can be taken in abundance which makes spaming such vehicles a bad ideal. Armour 14 spam is more likely to occur which most players do not due, because in the end of the day you have no scoring units and only. Can win against armies that can't crack mass armor 14.
With side armour shots it depends on et up and terrain. I always put my important vehicles in the corners of the board making side shots really hard to do. Unless you are out flanking, or taking a risk of ds off the board you are not hitting side armor. If I spam armour 13 with guard than I will be forced to have a few tanks sides exposed though.
The only army who can really spam armour 13 is dark angels. 3 elite dreads, 3 fast baals, 3 vindicators. I don't remeber if they can take raiders as dedicated, but typically you see a ton of discounted razorbacks thrown in.
Necrons can do so, but one pen turns their vehicles into dark eldar vehicles. Strength 8 is still strong enough to pen 13. My Grinder in 5 th speaks from experance from being either killed or immobilized a lot thanks to those luck strength 8 shots. Now with either a +2 cover save or a + 5, +2 max invulnerable save the lucky str 8 shots is not much of a problem, not to mention my flyers soak up the shooting instead. Go bloodthirster!
I guess we can always take a commander with no weapons but tank hunter, monster hunter, ignore cover and rerolled all misses for a 3 man broadside squad.(via signature systems)
Hmm, Give him Iridium to keep him survivable and it could work. Give the 88s Drone Controllers and 6 Missile Drones and the level of output would be terrifying.
That's a really good idea but if you gave the commander a drone controller those drones all hit on BS 5 leaveing free slots for the 88's.
But then you can only take 2 drones. Handy at BS5 sure, but 12 shots at BS3 is better odds in any ones book surely? Plus, it would royally mess up any flyers than came into range.
As I understand it Drone controllers do not allow you to take drones. Instead drone controllers make the drones use the BS of the whoever has the Drone controllers instead of the drones own AI/BS.
Most squad leaders can take any 2 Drones, or in the case of Broadsides, everyone can take 2 each. The DCs do boost the BS of the Drones yes, so you don't NEED them, but it means 6 out of 12 S7 shots. Any light vehicle is going to be worried by that.
Had a game today, I had no rails at all and couldn't even kill a single armour 12 tank. I had an ionstrike, two broadsides with high yields and Farsight with two body guards, each with plasma. Didn't kill a single vehicle. Did knock a hull point off one.
You will need Fusion at the very least. You have to have something that can hit armour hard.
I'm thinking I'll use one rail head, catty armed with ion and fusion and broadsides with MMM. MMM was against infantry and chaos bikes, but wasn't so great against vehicles. Would probably mulch flyers and most transports.
Actually, I forgot about the raider but that died to fire warriors.
I thought some anti-tank statistics on some of the weapons might help those of you who are also struggling with AV13+ (or armour in general). I can cover more if people provide me with the stats (I'd like to run comparisons on all the Riptide's weapons once I get my book, and I'll do so anyways once I get my codex), I will also aim to look at the statistics against Toughness values later on.
These are the statistics of each weapon dealing damage to a vehicle. They are the average amount of damage each weapon will of; composed of the number of shots by the percentage to hit. All statistics are rounded to the nearest 2 decimal places. Ballistic Skill was assumed to be the baseline of the unit using the weapon (BS3 for everything with the exception of the hammerhead weapons) Blast weaponry was accounted for assuming a single vehicle was targeted and scatter was averaged across the distribution of possible outcomes.
Burst Cannon
AV HP Pen Explode
10 0.67 0.33 0.06
11 0.33 0.00 0.00
12 0.00 0.00 0.00
13 0.00 0.00 0.00
14 0.00 0.00 0.00
Burst Cannon: Twin-Linked
AV HP Pen Explode
10 1 0.5 0.08
11 0.5 0.00 0.00
12 0.00 0.00 0.00
13 0.00 0.00 0.00
14 0.00 0.00 0.00
Fusion Blaster: No Melta
AV HP Pen Explode
10 0.42 0.33 0.17
11 0.33 0.25 0.13
12 0.25 0.17 0.08
13 0.17 0.08 0.04
14 0.08 0.00 0.00
Fusion Blaster: No Melta, Twin-Linked
AV HP Pen Explode
10 0.63 0.50 0.25
11 0.50 0.38 0.19
12 0.38 0.25 0.13
13 0.25 0.13 0.06
14 0.13 0.00 0.00
Fusion Blaster: Melta
AV HP Pen Explode
10 0.50 0.49 0.24
11 0.49 0.46 0.23
12 0.46 0.42 0.21
13 0.42 0.36 0.18
14 0.36 0.29 0.15
Fusion Blaster: Melta, Twin-linked
AV HP Pen Explode
10 0.75 0.73 0.37
11 0.73 0.69 0.34
12 0.69 0.62 0.32
13 0.63 0.54 0.27
14 0.54 0.44 0.22
Heavy Rail Rifle
AV HP Pen Explode
10 0.63 0.50 0.25
11 0.50 0.38 0.19
12 0.38 0.25 0.13
13 0.25 0.13 0.06
14 0.13 0.00 0.00
High Yield Missile Pod
AV HP Pen Explode
10 2.00 1.50 0.25
11 1.50 1.00 0.17
12 1.00 0.50 0.08
13 0.50 0.00 0.00
14 0.00 0.00 0.00
Ion Accelerator: Nova
AV HP Pen Explode
10 0.28 0.27 0.09
11 0.27 0.25 0.08
12 0.25 0.21 0.07
13 0.21 0.15 0.05
14 0.15 0.09 0.03
Missile Pod
AV HP Pen Explode
10 0.67 0.50 0.08
11 0.50 0.33 0.06
12 0.33 0.17 0.03
13 0.17 0.00 0.00
14 0.00 0.00 0.00
Missile Pod: Twin-Linked
AV HP Pen Explode
10 1.00 0.75 0.13
11 0.75 0.50 0.08
12 0.50 0.25 0.04
13 0.25 0.00 0.00
14 0.00 0.00 0.00
Plasma Rifle: Single Shot
AV HP Pen Explode
10 0.25 0.17 0.06
11 0.17 0.08 0.03
12 0.08 0.00 0.00
13 0.00 0.00 0.00
14 0.00 0.00 0.00
Plasma Rifle: Single Shot, Twin-Linked
AV HP Pen Explode
10 0.38 0.25 0.08
11 0.25 0.13 0.04
12 0.13 0.00 0.00
13 0.00 0.00 0.00
14 0.00 0.00 0.00
Plasma Rifle: Rapid Fire
AV HP Pen Explode
10 0.50 0.33 0.11
11 0.33 0.17 0.06
12 0.17 0.00 0.00
13 0.00 0.00 0.00
14 0.00 0.00 0.00
Plasma Rifle: Rapid Fire, Twin-Linked
AV HP Pen Explode
10 0.75 0.50 0.17
11 0.50 0.25 0.08
12 0.25 0.00 0.00
13 0.00 0.00 0.00
14 0.00 0.00 0.00
Railgun
AV HP Pen Explode
10 0.78 0.67 0.33
11 0.67 0.56 0.28
12 0.56 0.44 0.22
13 0.44 0.33 0.17
14 0.33 0.22 0.11
Seeker Missile: BS3
AV HP Pen Explode
10 0.42 0.33 0.06
11 0.33 0.25 0.04
12 0.25 0.17 0.03
13 0.17 0.08 0.01
14 0.08 0.00 0.00
Seeker Missile: BS4
AV HP Pen Explode
10 0.56 0.44 0.07
11 0.44 0.33 0.06
12 0.33 0.22 0.04
13 0.22 0.11 0.02
14 0.11 0.00 0.00
Seeker Missile: BS5
AV HP Pen Explode
10 0.69 0.56 0.09
11 0.56 0.42 0.07
12 0.42 0.28 0.05
13 0.28 0.14 0.02
14 0.14 0.00 0.00
The statistics suggest that the twin-linked fusion blaster (assuming you are inside melta range) is the best anti-tank option among those listed here for pure statistical punch. It is however limited by its low range, making delivery and evacuation difficult.
As expected the non-Twin-Linked burst cannon is the worst option listed here (no surprises).
The Riptide's nova charged ion accelerator performed astoundingly poorly, given the tendency for it to over heat nearly 50% of the time between the Nova Generator and the Gets Hot! rules.
The hammerhead performed admirably compared to the options we have.
The high yield missile pods outdo the heavy rail rifle in taking off hull points by a wide margin but are artificially capped by S7 at AV13, while the heavy rail rifle provides a slightly improved chance to explode the vehicle after a penetrating hit and can glance right the way up to AV14.
Wow. Lotta states there. Not a bit math head myself so I am assuming that 1.00 would represent a 100% chance?
Ie the HYMP gets a rating of 0.25 for explodes on AV10. Is that 25% chance?
I think your no melta and no melta, twin-linked fusion blaster stats are the wrong way around. Other than that, nice work.
It's also worth pointing out, I feel, that most vehicles with 13 side armour have weaker side armour. Especially in Marine lists, so combining the stats above with my suggestion of flanking your opponent's vehicles should work very well indeed when trying to counter such vehicles.
Sort of...
I was finding percent wasn't actually helping as much because different weapons had different volumes of shots. So instead, these are the average number of damage to a vehicle a weapon can deal.
So, a high yield missile pod will average 2 hull points a turn against an AV10 target, while the heavy rail rifle only averages .68.
For a single shot, yes, it would tell you the percentage to hit... but for anything with more than 1 shot, it just tells you the average damage (basically, the number of shots and the percentage to hit smooshed together).
Edit: the fusions are indeed mixed up. I'll fix that now.
The thing a lot of people are missing is that AV13 is hard to deal with, for everybody.
Tau are no worse off than the vast majority of armies, in fact in some ways, they are better off in dealing with it. Mainly from the fact that your meltas have added range and you have the best tank busting gun in the game.
My Wolf/Guard at 1850 only put out;
10+D6 S7,
4 S8,
D3 S10 Ordnance,
4 Deep Striking Melta.
Thats all I have that can deal with AV13.
My Death Guard get;
4 S8,
4 S7,
2 S10 Ordnance.
Even in situations were you struggle to kill AV13 tanks, what are they doing back to you? sure 3 broadsides may only have a 1 in 3 chance of killing AV13 from the front, but how much damage is that tanks going to do back to the broadsides?
So how do Tau deal with it? the same way as every other army;
1.Getting Meltas in close [fusion blasters]
2.Glancing them to death with S7 [autocannons for most armies, missile pods for Tau],
3.Putting plenty of S8 at them and hedging your bets between blowing them up and glancing them to death [missiles for everybody else, broadsides for Tau].
4.Trying to pop them with high strength weapons [Lascannons and ordnance for other races, S8/9 Ordnance and Railguns for Tau].
Actually, Orks don't have a problem with Armor spam, ironically enough.
With that said... I can't help much for Tau.
Can you re-do the odds for the heavy rail and the high yield, the only way to get them is twin-linked.
The measurements assume twin-linked, I didn't state it in the weapon description because it's the only way to take them and thus not a necessary differentiation. I could include the non-twinlinked versions if you want?
Edit: I've added seeker missiles, firing at BS3 (off a broadside/devilfish), BS4 (off a tank), B5 (using markerlight).
Seeker Missile: BS3
AV HP Pen Explode
10 0.42 0.33 0.06
11 0.33 0.25 0.04
12 0.25 0.17 0.03
13 0.17 0.08 0.01
14 0.08 0.00 0.00
Seeker Missile: BS4
AV HP Pen Explode
10 0.56 0.44 0.07
11 0.44 0.33 0.06
12 0.33 0.22 0.04
13 0.22 0.11 0.02
14 0.11 0.00 0.00
Seeker Missile: BS5
AV HP Pen Explode
10 0.69 0.56 0.09
11 0.56 0.42 0.07
12 0.42 0.28 0.05
13 0.28 0.14 0.02
14 0.14 0.00 0.00
Thought seekers could only be fired by markerlight?
From what I've heard they can fire themselves at the BS of the user as a weapon option in the shooting phase. Using a markerlight provides them with the advantages of an automatic BS5 (even if fired from a BS3 platform) and gives them the ignore cover special rule. I can't confirm that though.
I'll double check in and codex later and get post it up unless someone else beats me too it.
Get me the different modes of the heavy burst cannon from the Riptide too (specifically the strength) ;D
Seeker missiles are just hunter killer missiles now with nothing saying the unit can't fire it. Firing by markerlight is just a better way to do so. Though I wonder how true that is, if a unit, say a hammerhead, with a seeker fires one at a unit that has been marked and has say, 5 hits, It could use 3 of those to become BS 7 and still negate cover when firing a seeker.
The heavy burst cannon is just a heavy 8 heavy bolter which becomes heavy 12 rending when nova charged.
It has +1 Strength on a Heavy Bolter and gains +2 on top of that when Nova Charged.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on April 10, 2013, 09:31:54 AM
It has +1 Strength on a Heavy Bolter and gains +2 on top of that when Nova Charged.
The heavy burst cannon? Where are you reading from? It's Str doesn't change when charged. The Ion is a different matyer.
My bad. I was getting confused. But it is still +1S over a Heavy Bolter. :P
When did heavy bolters become the same str as a pulse rifle?
They always have been 5/4. The HBC is 6/4.
Quote from: Tybalt Defet on April 10, 2013, 11:00:30 AM
When did heavy bolters become the same str as a pulse rifle?
...Never. As in, they always have been the same strength.