Reserves and Non-dedicated Transports

[Carrelio]

Hey everyone,
My friend and I were planning a in the next little while, but while discussing lists we came across a bit of a problem.  He's going to be borrowing my Grey Knights and wanted to play an all storm raven list. 3 storm ravens, 3 squads of paladins, Draigo, and a librarian... but looking at the reserve rules, I think there might be a problem.

Units that must be held in reserve (the storm ravens) don't count towards how many units you can reserve... but with the independent characters counting separately in the calculation... he has 5 units that need to go in those storm ravens... but he can only hold a maximum of 3 units in reserve.

The rules say that dedicated transports and their unit count as one unit for the purposes of reserves, but storm ravens are not dedicated transports.

Does this mean he has to leave 2 units just standing around waiting on turn 1?

[Chicop76]

Well first off he would have to field half his army on the field. It would be best to put the storm ravens in reserve and when they come in scoop up his forces. 3 storm ravens, 3 paladins, libby, and Draigo in reserve means he has to field 8 units to do so. Cortez is rather cheap and you can take some really cheap squads at 12 or 16 points a piece. I do not quite remember, but for under 200 points you can put out 4 units and give them dedicated transports that is another 3 units which would make that move legal fo around 350 points. 55 points for the cheapest possible troop in a rhino. Heck that is more around 250 points. Oh that means no libby or draigo. That is assuming dedicated transports that is deployed count as a unit. Another solution is to use a landraider which would be 2/6. Add draigo to raider 3/5 which means you need one more unit to field vindicare assassin???.

[Carrelio]

Storm ravens are flyers, no?  Flyers must start in reserve.  And I don't see how the landraider helps... except giving the unit a place to live in for the first turn.

Edit: I see what you're getting at now, having a secondary army on the ground already to allow for those reserves.

[Chicop76]

Storm ravens are flyers, no?  Flyers must start in reserve.  And I don't see how the landraider helps... except giving the unit a place to live in for the first turn.

The flyers must start in reserve, but half your army must be deployed as well. As it stands he needs 8 other units to be on the board while what you listed is in reserve. The land raider is another option to get his paladins across the field. Yes not as good, but he needs to field half his army.

Pg. 124 main book. Under reserves. Up to half their units rounded up can be in reserves. If a unit like Marbo have to start in reserves that model does not count. Example Marbo and Vendetta is in reserve it counts as 0. So the 3 flyers does not count and he will have 5 models in reserve with him needing at least 4 models on the board. If the unit is in reserve with a dedicated transport than it would count as one choice. IC's count as a choice..


Taking back what I said earlier instead of their being 8 it is 5. If he deploys a paladin squad and drago on the field it would be legal. Which would be 2/3, or he must field 4 more models on the fiels which a landraider with paladins and draigo would ft 3/3.

Storm ravens are flyers, no?  Flyers must start in reserve.  And I don't see how the landraider helps... except giving the unit a place to live in for the first turn.

Edit: I see what you're getting at now, having a secondary army on the ground already to allow for those reserves.

Yes. You have to have half your army on the field, unless you are Daemons since they are forced to deploy off the field.

Read pg. 122 under victory conditions. The paragrapgh after the bold paragrapgh is important, because in the end of the game turn if no models are on the board you lose the game. So in turn one if I kill all his models on the board and he have the bulk of his army in reserve he will lose the game.


Pg. 9 explains game turns and player turns, so after both your turns if no models is on a players field he would lose the game, or simply at the end of turn 1-7.

[Carrelio]

That last part involving 'if you have nothing left you lose'was the worrying part for both of us, and actually why I figured I should raise the question here, since it seems super unfair to just snipe a couple models and win because someone wanted to have flyers (though I guess flyers are not in and of themselves all that fair at the moment).

[Chicop76]

That last part involving 'if you have nothing left you lose'was the worrying part for both of us, and actually why I figured I should raise the question here, since it seems super unfair to just snipe a couple models and win because someone wanted to have flyers (though I guess flyers are not in and of themselves all that fair at the moment).

I play daemons, so tell me about it. I get called a lot of things running Fateweaver and flamers. When I show them that some people go oh. I never got wiped in a turn with Deamons, but that rule forces me to make sure my half that comes in and do some damage and survive enough for my army to come in.

[Carrelio]

Maybe I'll tell him to run a foot-slogger list.  I built my army in the days of the Daemon Hunters codex... so it's mostly just hordes of marines in terminator and power armour.

[Chicop76]

Maybe I'll tell him to run a foot-slogger list.  I built my army in the days of the Daemon Hunters codex... so it's mostly just hordes of marines in terminator and power armour.

That is what most people are doing these days. Not saying not to do what he wanted to do. Just saying he needs to run enough models in turn one where he doesn't auto lose. I run half my army with Daemons and do not get wiped out. That being said I either do not get shot at in turn one or I shot first reducing the amount of return fire I would receive. Either way I am getting the first chance to shoot.

[Will's on Fire]

The stormravens do not count towards anything as far as I understand. Therefore you have 5 units, and 2 of those can be kept in reserve, so he needs to deploy 3. I would always round up in this case.



If he's running paladins, as long as he uses terrain sensibly he should be okay for them staying alive. The problem is with how far they can logistically make it across the board, and the answer is not very far.

With Grey Knights, you have short to medium range weapons fine. The problem is this list would lack long range, and you're having to footslog 10 paladins. The best bet therefore, is to take a libby with the summoning. As far as I can tell (checked the FAQ as well) he can do it from inside a stormraven.

So I'd say, deploy Draigo and two squads of paladins. Embark the Libby in one stormraven, and a squad in another. (In this case there isn't much need for the libby to get out for the two turns you need him to be teleporting things and this way if they take the libby out the sky, you don't lose a paladin squad). When the libby comes in, you teleport the draigo, this can put him anywhere up to 42" (before scatter) from the GK board edge, which is a useful hop! Then in the next turn, keep the stormraven on the board and teleport the other squad. Now all the squads are on the otherside of the board, and you don't even need to change your list.

- Will

[Carrelio]

That's actually a really neat idea, using the summoning to bounce the terminators around at the speed of a storm raven.  I'll pass it on to my friend the next time I see him.