Second Sphere

Hi All,
Quick poll/question:

How are you liking allies?

Love 'em?

Hate 'em?

Don't care?

Personally I love 'em, but I know it's not everyone's cup of tea.  Wanted to get opinions of others out there.

Best,
-BT

I do love the idea, not sure on the way it's been done. But I also haven't used them yet.

I quite like the idea, though I'm not looking forward to facing some of the more beardy combinations with my pure Dark Eldar force. I like the fact that a lot of the ally options stick to fluff, Wolves and Dark Angels not being Battle Brothers for example. However I am annoyed that Tyranids can't take a single ally, not even Guard/Tau to represent genestealer cults seeding the communities.

Eldar and Tau make a great team and they compliment each other well.

I am tempted to use the allies rules just so my BA can see some use (all of Dante and his Assault Squad :P) alongside my IG.

However I've still not seen the new rules so am unsure on the effectiveness of anything anymore. Only time will tell.

Might have to get a copy of the rules soon... :P

Quote from: BigToof on August 03, 2012, 02:53:35 PM
Hi All,
Quick poll/question:

How are you liking allies?

Love 'em?

Hate 'em?

Don't care?

Personally I love 'em, but I know it's not everyone's cup of tea.  Wanted to get opinions of others out there.

Best,
-BT

So far, I have no true need for an ally. But the conversion opportunities and also the strengths of an ally would sway me epically.

I really like the idea of the allies system when it makes sense.. but I really don't know where they came up with their way of determining which armies should be allies with the others.  There are just some strange groupings that I can't get over.  Battle brothers of Dark Eldar and Eldar just seems... I mean, really? 

The major thing I hate about the new allies systems are the crazy super army lists that I've been seeing... not to mention ignoring fluff in all regards.  There is nothing I hate more then total disregard for the fluff of an army... I mean 5th had it's fair share of colorful Salamanders, and I even saw some Ultramarine Cantors in my days but I mean, the other day I saw a Necron player bring a bunch of ork allies with his general being Imotekh..  Ok, so lots of people could give a crap less about fluff and story, but I don't know, things like that just bother me.

I think allies is great overall though, it's great for story, and I love that... but in America... story takes a back seat to utter destruction.  Oh well.

I'm quite glad to see a renewal of -some- sort of allies system, because it was getting really rediculous the way people were going on about how "NO YOU CAN'T HAVE ANYONE WORKING TOGETHER EVER YOU FLUFF HERETIC IT RUINS MY GRIMDARK >:("

However, as it's been done, it seems to imply things stand far more buddy-buddy between the various factions of 40k than they are or really should be. Which is kind of a big downside.

From a fluff standpoint I think you guys are thinking of the allies system as something more than it is. It isn't that the forces are actively allies and go into battle after battle together but are more of a case that both armies just so happen to be there at the same time and get confronted with a common enemy to fight.

As for me, I see allies as as a step in the right direction and at least we have some sort of guidance and rules rather than just saying "you can now ally two armies together now. Pick any two and in for it"

Quote from: The Architect of Change (FT) on August 04, 2012, 07:33:30 AM
From a fluff standpoint I think you guys are thinking of the allies system as something more than it is. It isn't that the forces are actively allies and go into battle after battle together but are more of a case that both armies just so happen to be there at the same time and get confronted with a common enemy to fight.

I pretty much agree with FT here, an example that's already been brought up:

Quote from: Matt1785 on August 03, 2012, 11:11:10 PM
Battle brothers of Dark Eldar and Eldar just seems... I mean, really?

Sure if they were the only two factions in play they'd be at each other's throats very quickly but when faced with other 'inferior' races I can easily see the Eldar combining to achieve a common purpose willingly. Seeing as Eldar corsairs aren't a codex army I think it's also only fair to allow Eldar and Dark Eldar battle brother alliances to allow for combinations of the two that try to represent the more unorthodox Eldar Corsair armies. The description of battle brothers mentions 'utter trust' which is a little too far... but the same could be said of an IG and space marine alliance in some circumstances, which I think is why someone decided that Grey Knights shouldn't have any battle brother options.

Even though I'm arguing that the allies combinations make sense roughly I will concede that there are some combinations that I think are very contentious for example I'd have thought Black Templar would be desparate allies with Eldar at best - the most psychically gifted race allies of convenience with space marines that HATE psykers? Still I guess most of our disagreements are only by one degree of the table? Not 'battle brothers' that should be 'come the apocalypse'.

Anyway, I agree with the above ideas about it being a step in the right direction - some guidance is needed - but also in that it gives too much freedom to people who are only interested in the most effective combinations of rules to win games... but I avoid that sort of player so in conclusion I very much like the freedom the rules offer.

Indeed. I also liked to old Chapter Approved Gue'vesa unit and the chance to field a Tau army with a "Gue'Vesa" units is great. Though in this case I wish IG and Tau were battle brothers. Still, it allows me to field a legal fluffy force that should be fun to use.

And just cause I'm grabbing a pair of Hydras for AAA has nothing to do with. :shifty:

I'm yet to use the Allies system, as I've been playing Necron in 6th so far and prefer to run them on their lonesome. In theory though I love the idea of Allies! My Space Marines army will be able to use those two Black Templar Crusader squads I have from before I bought a bunch of things BT can't use without thinking about it. My Chaos Marines will have Daemons to fear instead of laugh at. What's left of my shattered (literally, they didn't like moving house 4 times over the past 3 years) Dark Eldar will be able to contribute to the killy-ness of something.

With rumors abounding (amongst my friends anyway, I haven't looked into it too much myself) that WD plans to release a few "mini-dexs" for allies in the future it should be interesting to see previously unplayable races or factions included in the game. Hopefully anyway....

I kind of like the idea behind it (or rather, the idea presented in the sidebox beside the Allies Matrix where it talks about asking yourself why this alliance has taken place), but in practice the majority of 'alliances' we are likely to see are pure bullshit, spawned of people trying to find a way to make their army even more powerful. That's what bothers me. Every army is meant to have weaknesses, and the answer is not to just bring someone else's army to counter that weakness.

My only gripe with the allies system is that there is potential for some very abusive combinations, and I don't like the idea of combining armies together, in order to compensate for the weaknesses of the primary force.  There are also some alliances which do seem a bit strange to me, but there are others which are very helpful; for example, my Chaos army being able to ally with Daemons solves my problem of redundant models from an abandoned Daemon army project.

Even though there are problems with the ally system, the sorts of players who exploit the rules in this manner would find other ways to exploit the rules even if the allies system were not present, so it's not something to get unduly worked up about in my opinion.

I really like that they've added it. It does add a certain level of complexity which in turn makes the game harder to balance but I still think its a good addition. I haven't gotten a game of 6th in yet though so If you catch me after losing to some new wacky combo I may give a different answer haha!

I like the addition, and think it can be used to create really cool games. However, I do think that maybe allies are created for a more casual setting, where both players are playing for fun, either wanting to use models from both their armies, or wanted to create something they've read in the fluff.

In a competitive setting, I like the idea less, the people who used to take orks and blood angel allies for a kustom forcefield in two land raiders for 1500pts was bad enough, I don't want to see how these people murder the allies system. I've already heard about an epidemius dick move of allying with orks, taking grots, using aura of decay a couple of times as psychic power that doesn't target, but hurts enemy models (which the grots count as, as allies of convenience) within a range, to get up the tally to max in a single turn. This sort of thing is what annoys me.


- Will

In fun games I have been extremely satisfied, even though I have not been winning.  I am still getting used to playing with Tau and vanilla Space Marines.  My Grey Knight army will always stay a pure force because they would never fight with anyone in my mind.. without killing them afterwords anyway.

I have some Blood Angels, Necrons, Orks... all very little amounts, but I do like the idea of Free-boota orks joining another army, just not sure which army would make the most sense to join them to... not sure what would be fluffy to add free bootas too, although probably just orks...

Quote from: Will Vas Fire on August 08, 2012, 10:57:22 AM
I like the addition, and think it can be used to create really cool games. However, I do think that maybe allies are created for a more casual setting, where both players are playing for fun, either wanting to use models from both their armies, or wanted to create something they've read in the fluff.

In a competitive setting, I like the idea less, the people who used to take orks and blood angel allies for a kustom forcefield in two land raiders for 1500pts was bad enough, I don't want to see how these people murder the allies system. I've already heard about an epidemius stick move of allying with orks, taking grots, using aura of decay a couple of times as psychic power that doesn't target, but hurts enemy models (which the grots count as, as allies of convenience) within a range, to get up the tally to max in a single turn. This sort of thing is what annoys me.


- Will

I wouldn't really worry about that. Nurgle Daemons is really not that scarry. If that was combinded with nurgle marines than I would bit a bit worried. If you losing points to buff your army it works for me. Once you kill the Tallyman the buffs go along with him. So please kill your allies while I take out the tally man.

Quote from: Chicop76 on August 09, 2012, 02:57:58 AM

I wouldn't really worry about that. Nurgle Daemons is really not that scarry. If that was combinded with nurgle marines than I would bit a bit worried. If you losing points to buff your army it works for me. Once you kill the Tallyman the buffs go along with him. So please kill your allies while I take out the tally man.

It'll cost 155pts to get those 30 grots and an Ork HQ. The other 1845pts can be spent on entirely nurgle daemons.

Also consider, that the tallyman with have a 3+ FnP save against everything but Str10 in addition to his Inv. He's going to be a tough nut to crack after that. Along with any other Nurgle daemons that turned up with him.

- Will

Quote from: Will Vas Fire on August 09, 2012, 10:04:44 AM

Quote from: Chicop76 on August 09, 2012, 02:57:58 AM

I wouldn't really worry about that. Nurgle Daemons is really not that scarry. If that was combinded with nurgle marines than I would bit a bit worried. If you losing points to buff your army it works for me. Once you kill the Tallyman the buffs go along with him. So please kill your allies while I take out the tally man.

It'll cost 155pts to get those 30 grots and an Ork HQ. The other 1845pts can be spent on entirely nurgle daemons.

Also consider, that the tallyman with have a 3+ FnP save against everything but Str10 in addition to his Inv. He's going to be a tough nut to crack after that. Along with any other Nurgle daemons that turned up with him.

- Will

The tallies do not start till he hits the board for starters. Also Nurgle lack range and mobility. The only thing scary is the nurgle prince, and Ku'gath really. All you have to do is focus fire the tallyman and no more +3 feel no pain. I have yet to see the tallyman list to work the way people want too. Adding allies to kill off for the tally only helps a little bit. Nurgle marine added would be scarry, but pure nurgle daemons is not that scarry.