Has anybody else thought of and/or tried this? Take a crisis suit commander or two, and give him the Advanced Stabilization System for the Slow and Purposeful rule. At first glance this is pointless since crisis suits are already Relentless, but if you attach him to a heavy weapons team, he will give that S and P to the entire unit, which doesn't happen with Relentless. There are three possibilities that come to mind here: broadsides, sniper drone teams, and (likely my favorite) pathfinders.
Attaching the crisis suit (stabiliz'O, SnP'O, SAP'O?) to a broadside squad without S&P means you would save 20 points (buying A.S.S. on one suit rather than three) and allow all three suits to take a support system like a targeting array. The sniper drone team is an intriguing possibility since the commander will give them Slow and Purposeful, and the drone team will give him Stealth and Shrouding. Pathfinders are the most obvious possibility, as you now have markerlights that can move and shoot at normal ballistic skill without paying the absurd points for marker drones.
Whatcha think?
EDIT: Yet another possibility, although probably not a good idea. Attach him to a kroot squad, and they could assault after rapid-firing, couldn't they?
I really like the sniper idea, have to look into that.
EDIT: Not so sure after thinking about it. So I can make snipers mobile and give them night version but I lose over watch.
This is something that has been brought to my attention in another thred and I really find it to be cheesey... but I might have to use it anyway. I'm allying Tau to Space Marines, and the thought of making things Relentless with really no drawback is incredible. Rapid Fire bolters then charge, moving and shooting with Devastators... the combinations can be extensive and it makes you wonder if there was obviously a little error in the rules for this one. Obviously they couldn't have conceived of every combo, but this one in particular is really good IMHO.
Silly question, but can you get vectored engines on a SnP Shas'O?
Because if so, now you can Hit and Run the Broadsides away if you get assaulted.
I'm not sure about you all, but the imagery of three battlesuits linking armies and jetting away gives me the chuckles.
Best,
-BT
Quote from: BigToof on July 27, 2012, 12:48:20 PM
Silly question, but can you get vectored engines on a SnP Shas'O?
Because if so, now you can Hit and Run the Broadsides away if you get assaulted.
I'm not sure about you all, but the imagery of three battlesuits linking armies and jetting away gives me the chuckles.
Best,
-BT
You probably shouldn't be able to but it looks like you could. The rules for Vectored Retro-thrusters say only Independent characters of monats (single suits) could take this option, but obviously the Shas'O is an independent character so whilst it won't gain you many friends, you could do this.
Maybe the Shas'O just acts as a distraction whilst the Broadsides waddle away.
Of course as the Advanced Stabilisation System and the Vectored retro-thrusters are both Battlesuit Support Systems, you would be leaving your Shas'O (or 'El if you want to save some points) with only one weapon option.
broadsides with Hit and Run: I must have to try that just for the sheer silliness of it! As far as I can tell, it's completely legal. Silly, nonsensical, and possibly even cheesy, but legal.
Ok that sounds fun. Make the Shas'El an Aurora, and you will have plenty of firepower for Overwatch too.
But which marine squad is it going to be most effective with? I know a lot about Tau, and I feel pathfinders are a solid choice (especially with a shield'O soaking up wounds for them)... but marines? I feel this is way more broken and cheesy and quite frankly that's just what I need at my local GW.
I'd say either sternguard or Devestators. Or possible scouts loaded with sniper rifles.
I've been thinking devs as well... and if they get the flak missile for the missile launchers then definitely devs.
Sniper rifles you say? What about attaching the Slow And Purposeful Shas'O (which shall henceforth be called the SAP'O, I'm thinking) to a squad of Eldar pathfinders or rangers? Whichever one of those it is that gets the super-duper cover save?
It's sure going to be embarrassing when I call Shenanigans on myself. :facepalm001:
Hmm, Full squad of Eldar Pathfinders, an Aurora SAP'O and a Farseer with Guide, Doom/Fortune.
Rerollable 2+ Coversaves for the Pathfinders and Rerollable 3+ save for the SAP'O, plus some good weapons for dealing with over watch.
Remember that guide and fortune do not work on non-eldar units, only doom. so that Farseer is not synthesizing as well as he could with the rest of our army... or even that full squad since the battlesuit is in there. Consider divination powers instead?
I don't know if moving snipers is a good idea. Their biggest boon is their cover save, which will often leave them isolated in behind some piece of terrain, and thus not requiring much movement.
Can you turn off Slow and Purposeful on the SAP'O? If so then I know what my new commander is going to be!
Quote from: knightperson on July 27, 2012, 04:00:32 AM
The sniper drone team is an intriguing possibility since the commander will give them Slow and Purposeful, and the drone team will give him Stealth and Shrouding.
I was about to point out this wouldn't work, but a last minute check of the ruling of Stealth and Shrouded brilliantly makes this work.
Personall,y this is something I wouldn't do, on the grounds that its clearly chessy, and non-sensical.
For Tau, the only place this sort of loadout would be best for would be Broadsides. And thats it!
Bear in mind, whatever unit you combine with your SAP'O, are going to become Priority targets by your opponent. With that thought, I'd say that Shield Drones (SAP'O) and Shield Generators (Broadsides) would be a must as well. Shield Drones can also be sued Cheesily with the new wound allocation rules.
Quote from: Narric of 4th Sphere on July 28, 2012, 05:00:20 PM
Quote from: knightperson on July 27, 2012, 04:00:32 AM
The sniper drone team is an intriguing possibility since the commander will give them Slow and Purposeful, and the drone team will give him Stealth and Shrouding.
I was about to point out this wouldn't work, but a last minute check of the ruling of Stealth and Shrouded brilliantly makes this work.
Personall,y this is something I wouldn't do, on the grounds that its clearly chessy, and non-sensical.
For Tau, the only place this sort of loadout would be best for would be Broadsides. And thats it!
Bear in mind, whatever unit you combine with your SAP'O, are going to become Priority targets by your opponent. With that thought, I'd say that Shield Drones (SAP'O) and Shield Generators (Broadsides) would be a must as well. Shield Drones can also be sued Cheesily with the new wound allocation rules.
It is not completely non- sensical at least the Stealth part as per the rules in the book the stealth generator project a field around the unit covering the drones even though the drones do not have a stealth generator. If the field can cover lots of drones why can it not cover 1 extra battlesuit? If you see the stealth generator as a bubble is makes a lot more sense.
My new favourite unit is two IC battlesuits in a Stealth team with hit and run. (cannot deploy together but IC can join after development)
Quote from: KCKitsune on July 28, 2012, 03:44:31 PM
Can you turn off Slow and Purposeful on the SAP'O? If so then I know what my new commander is going to be!
You can indeed turn off Slow and Purposeful for the SAP'O. Page 25 of Codex: Tau, Advanced stabilisation system (paragraph 2)
Quote from: Cammerz on July 28, 2012, 06:16:16 PM
Quote from: KCKitsune on July 28, 2012, 03:44:31 PM
Can you turn off Slow and Purposeful on the SAP'O? If so then I know what my new commander is going to be!
You can indeed turn off Slow and Purposeful for the SAP'O. Page 25 of Codex: Tau, Advanced stabilisation system (paragraph 2)
I never realised that, for tau at least Slow and Purposeful is always turned off unless you say you are using it in the movement phase then it lasts 1 turn. So you can overwatch some off the time .
I tried this yesterday, and the early verdict is that it does work as advertised, but it doesn't fix all the problems with pathfinders. I was fighting a VERY strong Tyranid list with two Tervigons, three zoanthropes, the Parasite of Mortrex escorted by about six bases of flying rippers (skyslashers, I think they're called), two squads of sneaky-bastard Ymgarl genestealers, and a truly horrific number of gaunts. My list had two squads of fire warriors, two warfish, a squad of broadsides with plasma rifles, three fireknife suits, one skyray, 8 pathfinders (2 with rail rifles), the SAP'El, and five stealth suits. I can blame my crushing defeat on a lot of things, including failing to wound with all three broadsides in their first barrage, having the initiative seized from me, lack of practice with the Tau and against good horde lists, and some really bad terrain setup luck, but truth be told I'm not sure the tactic is viable.
I started out concentrating most of my fire on the zoanthropes, going for a seeker missile alpha strike and broadside barrage that might Instant Death one or two of them, but I rolled an awful lot of ones. Parasite and the Ymgarls wiped out the kroot quickly, and two Kroot failed their toughness tests, producing SIX bases of rippers from each! Fireknives and broadsides finished Parasite And Company off, but the damage was done, and while the rippers didn't do any more damage they soaked up a lot of fire that I would have preferred to use against other things. I held out longer than initially expected by taking out Parasite and the Zoanthropes and forcing some of the horde to fall back to the Synapse provided by the Tervigons, but the mission was Capture The Flag Relic, and I couldn't even get to it. The stealth suits forced the gaunt squad that was carrying the relic to drop it briefly, but there were so many more squads available to pick it up that it was little more than a symbolic gesture. Oh, and while some have argued that Feel No Pain has been nerfed, it's still really nasty when this carpet of little cheap gaunts has it, cast by the Tervigons safely in the back where I can't even get broadside LOS to them!
Against an opponent that just fills the board and gives me no good target to focus fire on, it's pretty rough to use pathfinders that can't split fire (Damn you, whoever wrote the new Tau FAQ). I definitely need to tweak the list to take advantage of better-than-usual pathfinders, since I really didn't have enough regular firepower that could use the markerlights. And I'm really not used to only having two crisis suit hardpoints, since one of them is taken up by the A.S.S. The SAP'El build this time was a Shas'el with Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, A.S.S., hw multitracker, iridium armor, stim injectors, and two shield drones. Put up at the front to take the small arms fire (and able to Look Out Sir for anything big), he makes the unit extremely tough unless the opponent can get around behind him somehow, but even with only a Shas'El he's terribly expensive for not much firepower. I should have spent the extra 25 points to make him a Shas'O and keep him BS 5, but I felt he was already too expensive. I will play around with the theory some more another time, but I think the lack of target lock makes the pathfinders nonviable, even with Slow and Purposeful.
Quote from: Pottsey on July 28, 2012, 07:25:11 PM
Quote from: Cammerz on July 28, 2012, 06:16:16 PM
Quote from: KCKitsune on July 28, 2012, 03:44:31 PM
Can you turn off Slow and Purposeful on the SAP'O? If so then I know what my new commander is going to be!
You can indeed turn off Slow and Purposeful for the SAP'O. Page 25 of Codex: Tau, Advanced stabilisation system (paragraph 2)
I never realised that, for tau at least Slow and Purposeful is always turned off unless you say you are using it in the movement phase then it lasts 1 turn. So you can overwatch some off the time .
FYI - Its actually better than that - The ruling for the A.S.S in the Tau Codex says it lasts for a turn, in the new rulebook it states (page 9) "one game turn therefore comprises two player turns - one for each player. Whenever a rule refers to 'A turn' it always means player turn, unless it specifically refers to a game turn."
You can use the A.S.S to move things around as much as you like, as soon as your Player Turn stops, they stop being slow and purposeful - so in your opponents turn you can overwatch and in your turn you can move 6" and fire at normal BS - Win Win.
Quote from: Gonefishing on August 31, 2012, 09:08:25 PM
FYI - Its actually better than that - The ruling for the A.S.S in the Tau Codex says it lasts for a turn, in the new rulebook it states (page 9) "one game turn therefore comprises two player turns - one for each player. Whenever a rule refers to 'A turn' it always means player turn, unless it specifically refers to a game turn."
You can use the A.S.S to move things around as much as you like, as soon as your Player Turn stops, they stop being slow and purposeful - so in your opponents turn you can overwatch and in your turn you can move 6" and fire at normal BS - Win Win.
An excellent point, and one that I had missed. Might be beyond the spirit of the laws, but so much of 6th Edition makes so little sense that who can tell?
A further refinement (and another point that I missed initially) is that S&P no longer makes you count as moving through terrain This means you do NOT automatically swing last in melee if you charge after using stabilizers. Which, unless I missed a bit in the rule about not being allowed to charge at all (entirely possible), means that it would be viable to attach a SAP'O to a kroot squad, rapid-fire with the kroot rifles and whatever weapons the crisis suit is carrying, and charge into melee with the crisis suit and his drones soaking up the overwatch and the hounds swinging at Initiative 5!
I don't have the book handy right this second, but I will check on that possible prohibition against charging.
That is entirely fine, no rule restrictions to prevent that... but why stop there? Why not add a VRT to your commander, and get the charge every turn?
Quote from: Carrelio on September 03, 2012, 02:42:45 AM
That is entirely fine, no rule restrictions to prevent that... but why stop there? Why not add a VRT to your commander, and get the charge every turn?
You could do that. It would be a weird build, using 2 of your 3 crisis hardpoints for support systems and leaving only one for a weapon, but there are some good all-purpose weapon options like the CIB or plasma rifle. I think the biggest problem with Slow, Purposeful, Hit, and Run (which unfortunately doesn't lend itself to much of an acronym) Kroot is that they're too fragile. I think you're unlikely to survive the second round of combat and still have enough models left to be a strong enough force for a second charge. Maybe mixing in some Krootoxen for wound absorbtion would be worth it? Finding a unit in our Battle Brother allies list that would benefit from both SAP and HAR (sapphire? maybe that's the acronym) is tricky because hardly anything that is decent in assault carries non-assault weapons. The generic Space Marine tactical squad might be a good candidate. A bunch of bolters, maybe even Sternguard with their fancy ammo, to soften up the target, then charge in with the powerfist and whatever else they are carrying.
But most of the time, with the notable exception of Kroot, I think most units would benefit from one or the other abilities but not both. Slow and Purposeful Devastators would be formidable, as would an assault squad that can Hit And Run. I think I will try the Hit And Run option on the Eldar Wraithguard ally squad I'm building so they can't be tarpitted in assault.
For the record, I'm building Wraithguard from, of all things, Bloodletter models. Somewhere in the Warp, Khorne is furious!
I actually think where this would benefit most would be on shooting units such as broadsides. Slow and purposeful obviously has its benefit here as it allows them to move and shoot, but hit and run also ensures that they are never going to be trapped by a tar pit.
Quote from: Carrelio on September 03, 2012, 03:29:24 PM
I actually think where this would benefit most would be on shooting units such as broadsides. Slow and purposeful obviously has its benefit here as it allows them to move and shoot, but hit and run also ensures that they are never going to be trapped by a tar pit.
I think you might be right. I have only tried any of these Stupid Shas'O Tricks once so far, but there is so much potential! While a lot of eggs in a single basket, those 500 points or so would give you a neat unit. Imagine an opponent's reaction when he spends a couple of turns chasing these guys around, finally gets them in melee with a power-weapon-equipped melee squad of some kind, only to have them weather a round of combat, Hit And Run away, and still fire the rail and plasma guns at regular ballistic skill!