Help bringing my IG from 5th to 6th. 2000 points

[Raving Bonkers]

Hey guys. So this is my army list that I enjoyed playing with in 5th. However games became few and far between, and since 6th was released I have only a couple games under my belt. But that was using my wolves, there was no challenges and no fliers. Over the next few weeks though my little gaming group will finally be reforming after the xmas break and I want to use my IG. We do not power game but like to form strong lists that we can have fun with. This was my guard list:

Spoiler

2000 Pts - Imperial Guard Roster

HQ: Company Command Squad (5#, 65 pts)
. . 2 Company Command Squad, 65 pts
. . . . 1 Veteran Heavy Weapon Team Missile Launcher
. . . . 1 Company Commander Warlord

HQ: Company Command Squad (5#, 65 pts)
. . 2 Company Command Squad, 65 pts
. . . . 1 Veteran Heavy Weapon Team Missile Launcher
. . . . 1 Company Commander

Troops: Infantry Platoon (60#, 640 pts)
. . 1 Infantry Platoon, 640 pts
. . . . 4 Platoon Command Squad
. . . . . . 1 Platoon Commander
. . . . 9 Infantry Squad Flamer x1
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant
. . . . 9 Infantry Squad Flamer x1
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant
. . . . 9 Infantry Squad Flamer x1
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant
. . . . 9 Infantry Squad Flamer x1
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant
. . . . 3 Heavy Weapons Squad
. . . . 3 Heavy Weapons Squad
. . . . 3 Heavy Weapons Squad
. . . . 3 Heavy Weapons Squad  Lascannon x3
. . . . 3 Heavy Weapons Squad  Lascannon x3

Troops: Infantry Platoon (39#, 520 pts)
. . 1 Infantry Platoon, 520 pts
. . . . 4 Platoon Command Squad
. . . . . . 1 Platoon Commander Melta Bombs; Power Sword
. . . . . . 1 Chimera Extra Armour
. . . . 9 Infantry Squad Flamer x1
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant Power Sword
. . . . . . 1 Chimera Extra Armour
. . . . 9 Infantry Squad Flamer x1
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant Power Sword
. . . . . . 1 Chimera Extra Armour
. . . . 9 Infantry Squad Flamer x1
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant Power Sword
. . . . . . 1 Chimera Extra Armour

Troops: Veteran Squad (10#, 160 pts)
. . 7 Veteran Squad, 160 pts Sniper Rifle x3; Forward Sentries; Grenadiers
. . . . 1 Veteran Heavy Weapon Team Missile Launcher
. . . . 1 Veteran Sergeant

Fast Attack: Scout Sentinel Squadron (3#, 135 pts)
. . 1 Scout Sentinel Squadron, 135 pts
. . . . 1 Scout Sentinel Missile Launcher
. . . . 1 Scout Sentinel Missile Launcher
. . . . 1 Scout Sentinel Missile Launcher

Fast Attack: Scout Sentinel Squadron (3#, 135 pts)
. . 1 Scout Sentinel Squadron, 135 pts
. . . . 1 Scout Sentinel Missile Launcher
. . . . 1 Scout Sentinel Missile Launcher
. . . . 1 Scout Sentinel Missile Launcher

Fast Attack: Valkyrie Assault Carrier Squadron (2#, 280 pts)
. . 1 Valkyrie Assault Carrier Squadron, 280 pts
. . . . 1 Valkyrie Multilaser; Multiple Rocket Pods x2; Heavy Bolter Sponsons x2
. . . . 1 Valkyrie Multilaser; Multiple Rocket Pods x2; Heavy Bolter Sponsons x2


Total Roster Cost: 2000

My tactics were quite obvious on this list with the 9 missiles and 6 lascannons I could deal with most armor.
Lascannons then target next biggest threat, either dug in units at the back or terminator equivalent units.
Missiles went to blast and joined in with mortar shots on infantry.
1st platoon would mostly stick to cover making a slow advance if needed behind chimera.
If units came close to me I would happily sacrifice a unit of men to leave an enemy close combat unit open to the rest of my fire.
My second platoon dashed for objectives mid to late game to contest, or through sheer weight of numbers, run an enemy off an objective.
Veterans would nestle happily in a well defended piece of cover, preferably at a midfield objective.
Sentinels and Valks had their maneuverability to strike at an enemies weak point.

I won quite a lot of my matches with this list. I typically go with a flavor and mine is as follows.

• I don't take named characters. Only one exception and that is for the Parasite in the Tyranid codex.
• Throughout all my armies, except my Tyranids, I like flamers and missile launchers. I know squads and conditions may prevail with better set ups but I just enjoy the idea of these two. So I like flamers over grenade launchers for example.
• I also like to avoid armor in my Guard as my Space Wolves are a highly mechanized force.
• Valkyrie were the last units to join my force. With 6th and the fliers rules, will I be able to rely on these two to put up some half decent dog fighting against other fliers along with my mass missile launchers? I would much prefer to avoid going to lascannons on these.
• Like my Tyranids, this army is mostly about a head count and dealing with the fact that most my army had to foot slog around.

And now some thoughts I have had that I have seen to go along with any advice people can give me.
My second platoon were always a 3rd to 5th turn mass charge unit to run off objective sitters. The platoon was formed quite late into the build of the list. I relied on mass numbers to deal with combat units and decent save units. The power swords were there just to help deal with the likes of space marines for an easier extra kill or two. Now with challenges does this make them redundant? Or with all the new rules out there will I likely see characters using gear such as power fists that strike last?

I have always read about the weakness of vehicles now. This does not deter me from using them, however is the extra armor still worth taking on my Chimera?

Finally, before my list hit 2000 points I use to use 9 or 10 Ratlings and I loved these guys. I would really like to bring them back into my list so is there any way I can bring these back without compromising the integrity of my list. Or are they not worth it in 6th?

Thanks in advance for any tips you guys have.
RB

[BigToof]

Hi RB,
Well, I can give my two cents.
6th has changed things around as power blobs are much harder to use than they were in 5th due to overwatch, lowering of standard cover and random charge length.
Not to say that infantry shouldn't be mobile, but it will be harder.
The whole damage system has really invigorated Russ users, and I'm actually seeing things like Vanquishers that just didn't exist during 5th.
The Vendettas are incredibly resilient and hella useful.  Sentinels and walkers in general aren't as great, as they can be taken apart in hand to hand by mass krak grenades and Sentinels have two glances before they go down.
Also, First Blood is often a deciding factor, so people have been leaning (at least in my meta) to not have as many Rhinos/Razorbacks, and instead have a few meatier units with smaller units scrambling around them.

Power Swords aren't as great anymore, as they are only AP3, while Power Axes are certainly (IMHO) more useful as they add a point to strength and (more importantly) are AP2.

It is much harder to have the sarges live long enough, however, as they can be picked out in assault as you have to allocate wounds to the closest model, but they are handy for cheap challenges.

Extra armor isn't as useful now, as glances don't do as much damage (so stuns are less frequent).

Ratlings and snipers in general are becoming more possibly useful as you can snipe out specials (and banners), but still suffer from the problem of needing that first 6 to hit...

I think you have a good backbone. I would play with what you have and really see how and what you want to change.

Best,
-BT

[Chicop76]

Drop the extra armour it's a waste of points in 6th. Also have you thought about using special weapons teams with grenade launchers. I used them with my swts and they have done really well with the cheap weapon systems.  I played with the ideal of having vets take them or command squads with them.

[Raving Bonkers]

Thanks for those tips guys. Looks like my army won't suffer to much I just need to play test it.

I prefer not to go for vendettas so will the Valkyries and mass missiles be able to cut it? I would like to keep the two valks or should I be looking at a fortification or Hydra is it?

I see the potential of grenade launchers, but its the flavor of the army that I am highly drawn to. So missiles and flamers to help fit with the feel of my wolves.

If I lose the 4 Extra Armour on the chimera, and the 4 power swords, as I am very weary of them seeing any use, I will be able to get 10 Ratlings, which can be fielded as up to 3 small units seeing how they are my only elites. 10 snipers a turn has that chance of getting 6's to snipe. Thoughts?

[Chicop76]

I noticed you have no heavy support options. The Hydra Flakk tanks are really god in this edition and would mesh with your army with staying under budget. My fav is the griffon. I like the griffon due to being cheap and great anti infantry that can also take out lite vehicles and is more accurate than anything else on indirect fire.

[Raving Bonkers]

With 6 lascannons and 9 missile launchers I feel that they can cover the grounds of heavier weapons. But also it means I'd be entering more armor into my list which is what I would prefer to avoid. I never really look at the fact I have no heavy support as that would begin to limit on how I build my army. The question is not should I take them? I guess that is a yes. It's, Can I do without them? Sure my battles may be harder but with the heavy weapons and the valks, will I still be able to manage other fliers and such.

[Chicop76]

With 6 lascannons and 9 missile launchers I feel that they can cover the grounds of heavier weapons. But also it means I'd be entering more armor into my list which is what I would prefer to avoid. I never really look at the fact I have no heavy support as that would begin to limit on how I build my army. The question is not should I take them? I guess that is a yes. It's, Can I do without them? Sure my battles may be harder but with the heavy weapons and the valks, will I still be able to manage other fliers and such.

Not saying you need it. Guard is one of the few armies that don't need it.

With the Hydra they ignore jink saves while against the vendetta they can stil get a +4 save against it. The Hydra allows will get targeted and will draw fire away from other targets.

The Griffon is just my fav and I seeit rarely used. It's more anti infantry than anything else.

[Arguleon-veq]

I dont think your list will be able to cut it vs flyers to be honest.

6 Lascannons and 9 Missiles is really not that much in terms of firepower although all those lasguns will be great againstn ground targets if you combine your squads. Dont worry about grenade launchers they are pretty poor. Missiles and flamers will do just fine for you and are some of the better choices around at the minute [people may disagree on the missiles but they also give you a handy anti infantry option].

Your problem is that your valkyries can not engage in any sort of effective dog fight with those weapon load outs. They are nice in a ground attack role but all your lasguns do that just fine anyway.

Here is what I have been using lately as anti air for guard when I dont fancy using vendettas;

10 Vets; Camo cloaks and snare mines
Aegis Defense Line with Quadgun;
2 Hydras; Camo Netting

390 points. It gives you a scoring, a BS4 quadgun with a unit manning it that is hard to shoot down thanks to a 3+ cover and hard to kill hydras thanks to the camo netting and defense line. You can also make a cheap hydra by mixing a chimera kit and the quadgun from the defense line.

This will give you pretty good anti air [could even throw in an autocannon or missile on the vets]. The hydras also arent as limited as you expect with 6's needed to hit ground targets as they are still great against skimmers and there are plenty of necron barges and dark eldar ravagers floating around and your going to see more land speeders thanks to dark angels.

[Raving Bonkers]

Thanks for the reply veq. All advice seems to be focused on the air dense so I don't mind dropping the Valks and it does seem like I may need to do so.

The question now is obviously points, where to get them from and what to do with them. I can't dig out my codex right now so not sure what everything does or how much it costs.

So as said previously, I want my ratlings back. Easily done by dropping power weapons and extra armor. Which if I recall correctly it is an exact point swap, still keeping me at 2000. But with these guys totting sniper rifles, I can afford to lose them off my current vets. Saving me?

This then brings in the place for my current vets. If they aren't my source of snipers and so not needed to dig in deep on the midfield, do they still require either or any of the special rules I gave them? It has been so long since I played I have forgotten what the rules give and cost.

So I now need to figure out what points I saved from dropping the 3 Sniper Rifles and if I drop the special rules. These guys also fulfill the first part of my air defense list:
10 Vets; Camo cloaks and snare mines w/missile launcher
Aegis Defense Line with Quadgun;
2 Hydras; Camo Netting

So with points already saved from my vets, how much does it cost to get those hydras and defense line? Do I need to drop both my valks, or just one?

[Chicop76]

I say that is about 250 points. I believe last I remebered Hydras was like 75 or 140 and lie line is 50 plus 50 for the gun. I am just rough guessing and really do not remember. Just looked and the line with gun is 100 points.

[Raving Bonkers]

So got home and onto my Army Builder. With a few clicks here is my reviewed list:

Spoiler

2000 Pts - Imperial Guard Roster

HQ: Company Command Squad (5#, 65 pts)
. . 2 Company Command Squad, 65 pts (Infantry; Assault Grenades; Flak Armour; Close Combat Weapon x2; Lasgun x2)
. . . . 1 Veteran Heavy Weapon Team (Missile Launcher; Assault Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x1; Flak Armour; Lasgun x1)
. . . . 1 Company Commander (Character; Assault Grenades; Flak Armour; Refractor Field; Laspistol; Close Combat Weapon;  Warlord; Senior Officer)

HQ: Company Command Squad (5#, 65 pts)
. . 2 Company Command Squad, 65 pts (Infantry; Assault Grenades; Flak Armour; Close Combat Weapon x2; Lasgun x2)
. . . . 1 Veteran Heavy Weapon Team (Missile Launcher; Assault Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x1; Flak Armour; Lasgun x1)
. . . . 1 Company Commander (Character; Assault Grenades; Flak Armour; Refractor Field; Laspistol; Close Combat Weapon; Senior Officer)

Elite: Ratling Squad (5#, 50 pts)
. . 5 Ratling Squad, 50 pts (Infantry; Flak Armour; Laspistol x5; Sniper Rifle x5; Infiltrate; Stealth)

Elite: Ratling Squad (5#, 50 pts)
. . 5 Ratling Squad, 50 pts (Infantry; Flak Armour; Laspistol x5; Sniper Rifle x5; Infiltrate; Stealth)


Troops: Infantry Platoon (60#, 640 pts)
. . 1 Infantry Platoon, 640 pts
. . . . 4 Platoon Command Squad (Infantry; Assault Grenades; Flak Armour; Close Combat Weapon x4; Lasgun x4)
. . . . . . 1 Platoon Commander (Character; Assault Grenades; Flak Armour; Laspistol; Close Combat Weapon; Junior Officer)
. . . . 9 Infantry Squad (Infantry; Assault Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x9; Flak Armour; Lasgun x8; Flamer x1; Combined Squad)
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant (Character; Assault Grenades; Flak Armour; Laspistol; Close Combat Weapon)
. . . . 9 Infantry Squad (Infantry; Assault Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x9; Flak Armour; Lasgun x8; Flamer x1; Combined Squad)
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant (Character; Assault Grenades; Flak Armour; Laspistol; Close Combat Weapon)
. . . . 9 Infantry Squad (Infantry; Assault Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x9; Flak Armour; Lasgun x8; Flamer x1; Combined Squad)
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant (Character; Assault Grenades; Flak Armour; Laspistol; Close Combat Weapon)
. . . . 9 Infantry Squad (Infantry; Assault Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x9; Flak Armour; Lasgun x8; Flamer x1; Combined Squad)
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant (Character; Assault Grenades; Flak Armour; Laspistol; Close Combat Weapon)
. . . . 3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Infantry; Assault Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x3; Flak Armour; Lasgun x3; Mortar x3)
. . . . 3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Infantry; Assault Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x3; Flak Armour; Lasgun x3; Mortar x3)
. . . . 3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Infantry; Assault Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x3; Flak Armour; Lasgun x3; Mortar x3)
. . . . 3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Infantry; Assault Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x3; Flak Armour; Lasgun x3; Lascannon x3)
. . . . 3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Infantry; Assault Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x3; Flak Armour; Lasgun x3; Lascannon x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (39#, 420 pts)
. . 1 Infantry Platoon, 420 pts
. . . . 4 Platoon Command Squad (Infantry; Assault Grenades; Flak Armour; Close Combat Weapon x4; Lasgun x4)
. . . . . . 1 Platoon Commander (Character; Assault Grenades; Flak Armour; Laspistol; Close Combat Weapon; Melta Bombs; Junior Officer)
. . . . . . 1 Chimera (Vehicle (Tank, Transport); 12 model capacity; Heavy Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Turret Multi-Laser; Amphibious; Mobile Command Vehicle)
. . . . 9 Infantry Squad (Infantry; Assault Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x9; Flak Armour; Lasgun x8; Flamer x1; Combined Squad)
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant (Character; Assault Grenades; Flak Armour; Laspistol; Close Combat Weapon)
. . . . . . 1 Chimera (Vehicle (Tank, Transport); 12 model capacity; Heavy Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Turret Multi-Laser; Amphibious; Mobile Command Vehicle)
. . . . 9 Infantry Squad (Infantry; Assault Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x9; Flak Armour; Lasgun x8; Flamer x1; Combined Squad)
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant (Character; Assault Grenades; Flak Armour; Laspistol; Close Combat Weapon)
. . . . . . 1 Chimera (Vehicle (Tank, Transport); 12 model capacity; Heavy Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Turret Multi-Laser; Amphibious; Mobile Command Vehicle)
. . . . 9 Infantry Squad (Infantry; Assault Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x9; Flak Armour; Lasgun x8; Flamer x1; Combined Squad)
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant (Character; Assault Grenades; Flak Armour; Laspistol; Close Combat Weapon)
. . . . . . 1 Chimera (Vehicle (Tank, Transport); 12 model capacity; Heavy Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Turret Multi-Laser; Amphibious; Mobile Command Vehicle)

Troops: Veteran Squad (10#, 115 pts)
. . 7 Veteran Squad, 115 pts (Infantry; Assault Grenades; Flak Armour; Krak Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x7; Lasgun x7; Camo Cloak; Snare Mines; Forward Sentries)
. . . . 1 Veteran Heavy Weapon Team (Missile Launcher; Assault Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x1; Flak Armour; Lasgun x1; Camo Cloak; Snare Mines; Krak Grenades)
. . . . 1 Veteran Sergeant (Character; Assault Grenades; Flak Armour; Krak Grenades; Laspistol; Camo Cloak; Close Combat Weapon; Snare Mines)

Fast Attack: Scout Sentinel Squadron (3#, 135 pts)
. . 1 Scout Sentinel Squadron, 135 pts
. . . . 1 Scout Sentinel (Vehicle (Open-topped, Walker); Missile Launcher; Move Through Cover; Scouts)
. . . . 1 Scout Sentinel (Vehicle (Open-topped, Walker); Missile Launcher; Move Through Cover; Scouts)
. . . . 1 Scout Sentinel (Vehicle (Open-topped, Walker); Missile Launcher; Move Through Cover; Scouts)

Fast Attack: Scout Sentinel Squadron (3#, 135 pts)
. . 1 Scout Sentinel Squadron, 135 pts
. . . . 1 Scout Sentinel (Vehicle (Open-topped, Walker); Missile Launcher; Move Through Cover; Scouts)
. . . . 1 Scout Sentinel (Vehicle (Open-topped, Walker); Missile Launcher; Move Through Cover; Scouts)
. . . . 1 Scout Sentinel (Vehicle (Open-topped, Walker); Missile Launcher; Move Through Cover; Scouts)

Heavy Support: Hydra Flak Tank Battery (1#, 95 pts)
. . 1 Hydra Flak Tank Battery, 95 pts
. . . . 1 Hydra Flak Tank (Vehicle (Tank); Auto-targeting System; Heavy Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin-Linked Hydra Autocannons x2; Camo Netting)

Heavy Support: Hydra Flak Tank Battery (1#, 95 pts)
. . 1 Hydra Flak Tank Battery, 95 pts
. . . . 1 Hydra Flak Tank (Vehicle (Tank); Auto-targeting System; Heavy Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin-Linked Hydra Autocannons x2; Camo Netting)

: Aegis Defence Lines (2#, 100 pts)
. . 1 Aegis Defence Lines, 100 pts (Battlefield Debris (Defence Lines))
. . . . 1 Gun Emplacement (Quad-gun)


Total Roster Cost: 1965

Losing both Valks I have fitted in the suggestions and got my ratlings back. No Valks, OK, I like them, but without giving them a lascannon or making them vendettas they could pull me back. Also if I face an army that spends points on units/gear to deal with fliers, they have already wasted them as I have none. Fluff wise, yeah it means I stick to the slow foot slogging of troops, but there's no emergency reinforcement/rapid evacuation plans/air support. Just means for more critical story lines I guess. Armies cannot always be prepared for everything!

Using this list all I have to do is buy two Hydras, as I already have the defense line back from my apoc matches. What should I do with the remaining 35 points?

Finally, Off Topic from the list, will my Valks ever be worthy of 6th edition gaming? Would they be worthy as an ally attachment to my space wolves who are mechanized, will they play well in the rare apoc matches or just be a waste of points? Should I adjust their set up with a lascannon? Or are the standard missiles any better for them than the multiple rocket pods? or should I make them in to terrain. For my army, vendettas just do not sit well with the feel of how I envision them so would not like to go that route although vendettas could suit my wolves.

Thanks again guys,
RB

[Arguleon-veq]

I really dont think the ratlings are worth the bother, thanks to such low toughness stealth doesnt really help to keep them alive for very long, they dont score and sniper rifles still struggle despite precision shot.

I think there is still a place for your valkyries. If you lose the ratlings you can put one back in. You can then put the etra squad from the first platoon [im a sucker for everything looking neat in an army and that leaves 3 squads in each platoon on the ground] inside it for some late game scoring.

On a modelling note if you want to keep the theme of missiles and flamers you can pick up spare valkyrie rocket pods on ebay for super cheap, you could mount one of those on the quadgun platform instead of the quadgun itself.

[Raving Bonkers]

snipers are just another passion. A flavor I cant go without. I've had it several times against nids, eldar, and dark eldar when a MC with high toughness is still standing against my heavy weapons with a few wounds left. Only for my snipers to turn around and finish the MC off by just wounding on 4's no matter what. Thats if snipers are the same as before with strength X and rending?

Also looking around. With how easily other armies can take anti air, by taking a single Valk just justifies them spending those points. I will probs look into making them an ally for my wolves at a later date