So I got my book today, I've been waiting for Eldar to be re-done for ages and really liked the look of the Wraithknight so I was really looking forward to this one.
Universal Rules:
The first is a very fluffy rule that gives them hatred but minus LD against, Slaanesh units, very fitting and nice and balanced.
The second is a very nice rule that lets a unit shoot before or after running which again I think works very well for Eldar and goes some way in making up for the short range of a lot of their weapons.
Psychic Lores:
You get two new lores, one for warlocks/spiritseers and one for farseers.
The warlock lore is fantastic, each power can be used as either a curse or blessing and almost all are very nice, the big drawback being that they are cast from LD8 warlocks.
The farseer lore is very up and down. The old powers like doom, guide and fortune are all in there and very nice unfortunatly most of the other powers are pretty terrible and most cost 2 warp charge points. Thankfully our farseers can take divination.
HQ
Farseers: Lvl3 Psykers with access to divination for a bargain cost, great choice.
Autarchs: Not much has changed to be honest although they do get access to some snazzy new items.
Avatar: About equal to the old one, more points, slightly better stats.
Warlocks: You can still have a council and these guys are each Lvl1 psykers. Singing spears no longer lose you an attack which is nice. You can get a pretty tasty bike council, with the right powers you can end up with a council with a 2+ save/3+ cover/4+ Invun with Fearless and re rolling all saves. Still viable although still a massive amount of points.
Pheonix Lords: Same as always, decent enough but not really that great for what they cost. Can be useful for certain powers such as Karandras' infiltrate.
TROOPS
Anything to do with guardians got +1BS, WS and I which is great.
Bikes: Already the troop of choice these guys just got way, way better. They got a big points drop [20+%] they got the stat increase above and their shuriken weapons got better.
Shurikens are now AP2 on a to wound roll of a 6 and they can wound things they wouldnt normally be able to [looking at you wraithknights].
Rangers: The other reliable eldar troop choice got a slight boost. No more pathfinder upgrade but they got a big point drop too.
Guardians: Went up in points but with the increase in stats and weapon power its probably worth it. Can have a weapon platform for every 10 guys[which now has its own statline]. Can be fairly survivable thanks to warlocks with conceal [which gives shrouded].
Dire Avengers: With the increase in price I thought these guys would be amazing, turns out they stayed about the same, not really worth it.
Wave Serpant: I am really not sure what to make of this. With a twin linked scatter laser+shuricannon you are looking at a nice little gunboat who gets a 4+ cover with a holofield. What makes it an effective gunboat are these things;
Laser Lock - If a model has a scatter laser, it fires first, if it hits, other weapons on the same model are twin linked.
Serpent Shield - The actual force field ability of this has changed, its ok. You can though deactivate it and use it as a gun that gets multiple S7 shots at a great range, ignoring cover and pinning.
Thanks to this your looking at 6S6 hits and 4S7 hits a turn on a fairly durable transport for 145 points. Whats also nice is that thanks to laser lock your looking at it being decent anti air [which the list lacks] as you average about 2.5 S6 hits and 1.5 S7 on a flyer.
Is it worth the cost? I really dont know. I do like them but will they survive long enough to justify the points?
ELITES
Fire Dragons: Big jump in points and without access to some of the former exarch powers [the best ones!] as all exarchs now pick from a list of them.
Howling Banshees: Very little change so still not useful at all.
Scorpions: Went up in points but they stayed decent enough, still better than banshees but still dont really cut it.
Harlequins: Went back to how they were before they messed with the shadowseer rules, you have to cast veil of tears now but at least its on LD9. So we go back to the enemy having a spotting range of 14'' which means you should get to charge without getting shot which is obviously very important.
Wraithguard/blades: Slight points drop and the warlock can always give them shrouded which is nice. Other than that they are the same, wraithcannons will be nice against all the monsters around but not really that competative. The new gun is a really nice flamer but wraithguard already have problems getting into range without lowering that range even more for a big points cost.
The combat wraithguard are just poor, they arent that good in combat.
FAST ATTACK
Swooping Hawks: Fairly useful, fast tank hunters with the old grenade packs which are fairly nice, may be worth a unit of 6 just for those.
Warp Spiders: The extra rules for monofilament weapons made these pretty good as did a slight point drop. Thanks to the eldar special rule and the fact they are new jetpack troopers they can shoot a target then drop back an average of 10'' to leave you 22'' away, hopefully out of charge range!
Shining Spears: The main problem with shining spears wasnt their points cost [although that was a problem and its been fixed a little] it was the lack of attacks, which they didnt fix at all. Give them a pistol!
Vypers: Still the same cost for double cannons but now at extra BS with the chance of AP2. Not bad, not great.
Crimson Hunter Flyer: I really wanted to like this, its weapons are great [2 bright lances and a pulse laser] it can have BS5, it should bea great air superiority fighter and then go on tank killing runs late game, instead thanks to AV10 all around it will get blown out of the sky by a strong breeze. Quadguns will ruin it and so will any other flyer. If it had been AV11/11/10 it would have been lovely. The DE flyer has this but gets 1 less decent shot at 1 less BS but instead gets the option of a 5+ save and for less points. So AV11/11/10 would have been perfect in my opinion. Instead the one place we could have gotten decent anti air is wasted.
Hemlock Flyer: A psychic flyer with decent ground attack potential and its great for pinning or making enemy units run thanks to its terrify psychic power and the ability to effect LD of enemy units, coupled with warlocks lowering enemy LD by 3 with the right power you could be running broadsides off the table left right and centre IF it had better armour. Exactly the same problem as above.
HEAVY SUPPORT
Dark Reapers: A little cheaper, got slow and purposeful and can now have 10 in a unit. Still not really survivable enough though and you can get better firepower elsewhere.
Support Batterys: Of the 3 choices shadow weavers are nice and cheap and pretty effective, 3 S6 barrage blasts that can get to S7 and AP1 for 90 points is a pretty good buy.
Fire Prism/Night Spinners/Falcons: Pretty much like they were, still not really worth it for the fire they put out with the drop they have taken in survivability this edition.
War Walkers: The boost to shuricannons certainly helped the basic load out as did the extra BS, a lot like vypers for a very similar cost. One of the only places in the book with skyfire, you can but it for their missiles but i dont think 110 points is worth it for 2 S7 skyfire shots on such a vulnerable hull.
Wraithlords: Got a bit better and they werent too bad anyway. Weapons got cheaper and they can now have a sword and two of the same weapon without it just becoming twin linked. 2 bright lances, 2 flamers and a sword makes quite a nice tank buster whilst still being good in combat and against hordes, well worth the 165 points it would cost.
Wraithknight: A jump monster with awesome firepower and great combat stats. A lot of people will run 3 of these and most will run it as what im going to call the Sun Knight. 300 points for a shield, suncannon and scatter laser so your getting a 5+ invun on those 6 T8 wounds and your putting out 3 twin linked S6 AP2 blasts.
The basic option gives you two single S10 AP2 shots but the fact it can instant kill on the roll of a 6 to wound makes it pretty good at hunting other wraithknights and it saves you 60 points.
I think one major issue is if that people start bringing snipers and poison to deal with them, its just like killing 6 marines which isnt hard at all. I think 2 sun knights and 1 gun knight are what people will run.
Dark Reapers in units of 10? That is a nasty amount of AP3 firepower is they are still AP3. Crisis teams are worthless without Shield Generators on them if they are in range of these guys. And if crack shot is an option no cover either.
I am glad the Wraithknight costs a decent amount. Maybe they are finally dealing with the whole powerful and stupidly cheap issues they have been having.
Harlequins do sound nasty though if they are basically invisible until almost charge range.
Overall then, would you call this a balanced codex compared to what has already been released in 6th?
I thought wraithblades were at a pretty sweet spot in terms of CC, good enough to rock through most things, without being overkill against most targets. Plus you can get them as troops fairly cheapily which seemed nice to me..
But I don't actually know anything about this game. ;D
Your looking at 300pts for the 10 reapers but it is putting out 20 S5 AP3. Battlesuits and regular marines will get blown away but you dont see too many normal marines on foot these days.
I actually think most books so far havent been too bad;
Chaos - Pretty weak besides the 3 helldrake build and even then its really only top level when you throw in something like Orks for reliable/cheap troops.
Dark Angels - Pretty weak besides dakka build lists. Standard dakka build is lacking in mobility. Ravenwing are very nice but really short on anti air and things that ignore their jink are brutal for them [dark reapers do this by the way].
Daemons - Pretty standard and at the mercy of a lot of random dice rolls.
Tau - Seriously powerful.
Eldar? - Im not sure yet, I guess we will have to wait and see. Nothing jumps out as me as unbeatable and I really dont think they are on the level of Tau.
One serious implication of the new Eldar book is that it has made an already powerful Nid codex much more powerful. Now that nearly every army cant throw in cheap anti psyker runes of warding Nids can now Iron Arm/Endurance/Enfeeble till their hearts are content.
What it also does is allow Tzeentch Daemon builds to get some play time which is something I think can be pretty powerful now.
As for wraithblades im really not sure, the axes do give you a 4++ and a S7 AP2 attack, but its just 10 attacks. Plus they have to actually reach combat. They are a lot like the Necron close combat units and they dont work too well.
Ian assuming that the Wraithknight is a 2+ save? If so, and if fortune is still a thing, that is going to be amazingly hard to kill while obliterating anything it touches.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on June 02, 2013, 12:17:43 PM
Your looking at 300pts for the 10 reapers but it is putting out 20 S5 AP3. Battlesuits and regular marines will get blown away but you dont see too many normal marines on foot these days.
I actually think most books so far havent been too bad;
Chaos - Pretty weak besides the 3 helldrake build and even then its really only top level when you throw in something like Orks for reliable/cheap troops.
Dark Angels - Pretty weak besides dakka build lists. Standard dakka build is lacking in mobility. Ravenwing are very nice but really short on anti air and things that ignore their jink are brutal for them [dark reapers do this by the way].
Daemons - Pretty standard and at the mercy of a lot of random dice rolls.
Tau - Seriously powerful.
Eldar? - Im not sure yet, I guess we will have to wait and see. Nothing jumps out as me as unbeatable and I really dont think they are on the level of Tau.
One serious implication of the new Eldar book is that it has made an already powerful Nid codex much more powerful. Now that nearly every army cant throw in cheap anti psyker runes of warding Nids can now Iron Arm/Endurance/Enfeeble till their hearts are content.
What it also does is allow Tzeentch Daemon builds to get some play time which is something I think can be pretty powerful now.
As for wraithblades im really not sure, the axes do give you a 4++ and a S7 AP2 attack, but its just 10 attacks. Plus they have to actually reach combat. They are a lot like the Necron close combat units and they dont work too well.
Funny I was doing the dance of joy now I can now use my Tzeentch. What's funny is I said the same thing as I went strait to runes of warding when I bought my codex.
Oh it just mean you'll see a bunch of space wolf allies now since they can cancel within 24" at a 4+ or 3+. You just don't have to worry anout killing your self now.
Banshees=blind. Also I think they are cheaper. They seem to come off like damonettes. Wraithnight with blindshield plus banshees can be a dangerous combo to I 6 models and lower. Heck even I 8 models have a decent chance of blind.
Honestly if you run banshees you need blind. They also need spirtseer??? Something to keep them alive before they assault. It's almost like I have Harliquins here and Banshees there who do I take. Hmm outside of 24" one unit can't get shots and on average they can be 14" away and be good. That means 6" move and 11 " for easy assault. Thinking about with fleet they might can get away with moving and assaulting 14" out. Oh wait math wrong on average is 13" away and with fleet, so outside of 14" they have a decent chance of moving and assaulting.
There's absolutely no justification for giving Guardians, and Guardian style units, the same WS/BS as Aspect Warriors, so I disagree with the assertion that this is a good change. It was not needed at all, and, in the case of Defender Guardians, fails to fix the disconnect between a long range weapon platform, and an excessive short ranged gun.
With that complaint out of the way, most other changes seem sensible, and well thought out, and most Aspects have been changed for the better, so I'm happy overall. It's just a pity that nothing was done to fix the Howling Banshee delivery issue.
Quote from: Irisado on June 02, 2013, 03:07:57 PM
There's absolutely no justification for giving Guardians, and Guardian style units, the same WS/BS as Aspect Warriors, so I disagree with the assertion that this is a good change. It was not needed at all, and, in the case of Defender Guardians, fails to fix the disconnect between a long range weapon platform, and an excessive short ranged gun.
With that complaint out of the way, most other changes seem sensible, and well thought out, and most Aspects have been changed for the better, so I'm happy overall. It's just a pity that nothing was done to fix the Howling Banshee delivery issue.
I disagree with that. Black guardians was bs 4 or ws 4. Also in some old eldar rules vypers, war walkrs, etc. Was bs 4.
What they basically did was give them bs and ws 4 from the old rules.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on June 02, 2013, 12:17:43 PM
Daemons - Pretty standard and at the mercy of a lot of random dice rolls.
Tau - Seriously powerful.
I have actually found that daemons is among the most powerful books out there (no other codex in my area has curb-stomped so badly that people are tapping out on turn 1, and the best record we've had against it has been a game ending on turn 6 with just a drop pod left alive). Now obviously, this is an ultra competitive tournament list (flying circus). It is chaos, so it has some random effects, but the effects are often beneficial in the favour of the chaos player in some way (or at worst not dangerously detrimental), but you expect random in chaos.
Tau on the other hand are really not as powerful as everyone gives them credit for being. It's a well written and very balanced book, but outside the riptide (and the sniper drones... random as that may be), nothing stands out to me as being stronger than the other 6th edition books. And now that people are getting used to Tau again (and not just walking at them...) Tau are settling back in to their place as a tricky tactical army that can be very good if played well, but can't just show up and expect to win.
Quote from: Chicop76 on June 02, 2013, 06:32:05 PM
I disagree with that. Black guardians was bs 4 or ws 4. Also in some old eldar rules vypers, war walkrs, etc. Was bs 4.
What they basically did was give them bs and ws 4 from the old rules.
What they did, in relation to Guardians, was borrow a rule for a specific elite type of Guardian from the old, and overpowered, codex Craftworld Eldar supplement from third edition. If you look at Guardian WS/BS from White Dwarf 127, the second edition codex, the third edition codex, and the fourth/fifth edition codex, you will see that Guardians always had the same WS/BS, and it wasn't the value in the new book.
Black Guardians are a separate entity. They are specific to Ulthwé, and are not part of any other craftworld. On that basis, they cannot be used as a model from which to apply to other Guardians, since the two are not the same.
I see what you're saying about the vehicle rules, but most of the time they have been BS3 as well, with only a few exceptions here, and there, such as the Fire Prism.
With regards to guardians I think its something they needed from a game stand point. Without it they would have to drop them to a seriously low points value and then we would see hordes of them which really just doesnt fit for eldar at all.
From a fluff stand point I think they should be BS/WS4. Every guardian in an eldar army is an eldar who has walked the path of the warrior so at some point in their lives they have been BS/WS4. They have probably spent a normal mortals lifetime as an aspect warrior. Sure they could be hundreds of years removed from doing that but they are all also psychic and ive no doubt with their advanced minds and bodies can recall their training and their bodies will quickly get used to the rigours of war again with probably only a few months training.
I would imagine that being a guardian, for a time will exempt you from your chosen path. They probably start to train again, ready for war and for anybody that does a sport even if your out of it for ages and are rusty when you start back up, your not starting again, it does come back to you. Ive found it myself recently with boxing after a few years of not training, at first I was terrible but within just a few weeks things start coming together again. For an eldar who will be very unlikely to get really out of shape and have no doubt perfect recall and great control over their bodies if they are training heavily or not, it would probably only take a few months drilling/training to get their skill level back.
The whole heavy weapon issue isnt such a big deal for defender guardians now as you dont HAVE to take the heavy weapon which is nice. I always thought that was silly, so you can have a mobile agressive unit who can unload some shots and then try to fade out of assault range with their special rule.
Or you can sit back with a small unit with a heavy weapon.
As for daemons and tau. Daemons were VERY broken before the new book thanks to that WD update. Since the new book they have really fallen off, 60 flesh hounds looked viable for a time but even they cant take the massive weight of fire armies can get out there. They are good, but in now way broken.
Tau on the other hand can blow armies away in a few turns flat, even other competative armies. How else do you deal with tau besides coming at them? you cant deepstrike on them because almost the whole army will have intercept and very few armies can out-shoot them. Im actually playing a long game against them and operating outside their 36'' sweet zone but a lot of armies cant do that. If people are having riptides as their main competative unit, thats the problem. They dont put out anywhere near enough firepower and are only really good for soaking power and intercepting units with a large blast.
What really make tau are missile broadsides and markerlights. Ive yet to see a competative tau list that doesnt run at least 6 missile broadsides with 6 missile drones in each unit. Your looking at each unit putting out 20+ S7 hits with markerlight support and thats without the extra S5 hits it should get [another 10]. Your looking at every missile side unit killing 7+ marines. Add to that their durability and you have a brutal army.
Tau are as far away from a tricky tactical army as you can get if you want to play them as a competative list as they can simply line up and win the game against most other lists when you bring the right units.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on June 02, 2013, 10:40:52 PM
With regards to guardians I think its something they needed from a game stand point. Without it they would have to drop them to a seriously low points value and then we would see hordes of them which really just doesnt fit for eldar at all.
From a fluff stand point I think they should be BS/WS4. Every guardian in an eldar army is an eldar who has walked the path of the warrior so at some point in their lives they have been BS/WS4. They have probably spent a normal mortals lifetime as an aspect warrior. Sure they could be hundreds of years removed from doing that but they are all also psychic and ive no doubt with their advanced minds and bodies can recall their training and their bodies will quickly get used to the rigours of war again with probably only a few months training.
I would imagine that being a guardian, for a time will exempt you from your chosen path. They probably start to train again, ready for war and for anybody that does a sport even if your out of it for ages and are rusty when you start back up, your not starting again, it does come back to you. Ive found it myself recently with boxing after a few years of not training, at first I was terrible but within just a few weeks things start coming together again. For an eldar who will be very unlikely to get really out of shape and have no doubt perfect recall and great control over their bodies if they are training heavily or not, it would probably only take a few months drilling/training to get their skill level back.
The whole heavy weapon issue isnt such a big deal for defender guardians now as you dont HAVE to take the heavy weapon which is nice. I always thought that was silly, so you can have a mobile agressive unit who can unload some shots and then try to fade out of assault range with their special rule.
Or you can sit back with a small unit with a heavy weapon.
As for daemons and tau. Daemons were VERY broken before the new book thanks to that WD update. Since the new book they have really fallen off, 60 flesh hounds looked viable for a time but even they cant take the massive weight of fire armies can get out there. They are good, but in now way broken.
Tau on the other hand can blow armies away in a few turns flat, even other competative armies. How else do you deal with tau besides coming at them? you cant deepstrike on them because almost the whole army will have intercept and very few armies can out-shoot them. Im actually playing a long game against them and operating outside their 36'' sweet zone but a lot of armies cant do that. If people are having riptides as their main competative unit, thats the problem. They dont put out anywhere near enough firepower and are only really good for soaking power and intercepting units with a large blast.
What really make tau are missile broadsides and markerlights. Ive yet to see a competative tau list that doesnt run at least 6 missile broadsides with 6 missile drones in each unit. Your looking at each unit putting out 20+ S7 hits with markerlight support and thats without the extra S5 hits it should get [another 10]. Your looking at every missile side unit killing 7+ marines. Add to that their durability and you have a brutal army.
Tau are as far away from a tricky tactical army as you can get if you want to play them as a competative list as they can simply line up and win the game against most other lists when you bring the right units.
I can get 30 hounds across the board just fine, although they usually have endurance and sometimes stealth on them with a 3+ invulnerable save. I learned I always go first. If not keep my hounds back or at least out of rapid fire range. 3+ possible 2+ hounds are hard to deal with.
Right now i'm re working my list so I can get endurance more often. Invisibility is really hard to get depending on how i run. A lot of Slaanesh helps. The problem i see with daemons is if you take every reward and power you can spend like 500 points on just upgrades rather easily.
the randomness is not there in a flying circus list that takes fateweaver.
Had a gander at the Runes of Battle (i think?) The ones that are either a blessing or a curse, and some of them are really nasty.
Harlequins seem to be unpleasant again though with Veil of Tears as a power now. being invisible untill almost charge range is bad.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on June 03, 2013, 02:06:07 AM
Had a gander at the Runes of Battle (i think?) The ones that are either a blessing or a curse, and some of them are really nasty.
Harlequins seem to be unpleasant again though with Veil of Tears as a power now. being invisible untill almost charge range is bad.
How so. Having a 2+ cover was bad due to a ton of cover denial out there. If you was fighting only the new codexes Dark Angles really do not have anything to deal with your 2+ cover besides turn it into 3+ cover. I used harlequins last edition and veils was hard to contend with. If you want shrounding slap a spirtseer on them and they now have a cover save again. The fact the other player have to forfiet shooting to bother tyring to hit them is big. If done right you can assault without getting shoot upon, unless the other player rolls good, that's why you have that spiritseer tag along.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on June 02, 2013, 10:40:52 PM
As for daemons and tau. Daemons were VERY broken before the new book thanks to that WD update. Since the new book they have really fallen off, 60 flesh hounds looked viable for a time but even they cant take the massive weight of fire armies can get out there. They are good, but in now way broken.
Tau on the other hand can blow armies away in a few turns flat, even other competative armies. How else do you deal with tau besides coming at them? you cant deepstrike on them because almost the whole army will have intercept and very few armies can out-shoot them. Im actually playing a long game against them and operating outside their 36'' sweet zone but a lot of armies cant do that. If people are having riptides as their main competative unit, thats the problem. They dont put out anywhere near enough firepower and are only really good for soaking power and intercepting units with a large blast.
What really make tau are missile broadsides and markerlights. Ive yet to see a competative tau list that doesnt run at least 6 missile broadsides with 6 missile drones in each unit. Your looking at each unit putting out 20+ S7 hits with markerlight support and thats without the extra S5 hits it should get [another 10]. Your looking at every missile side unit killing 7+ marines. Add to that their durability and you have a brutal army.
Tau are as far away from a tricky tactical army as you can get if you want to play them as a competative list as they can simply line up and win the game against most other lists when you bring the right units.
Well, clearly it's not worth arguing because we are in two very different metas. Wish I lived where you do.
I been shying away from missile sides. The problem I seen is standard fire take out the drones and than ap 2 death rains upon them. It's to a point my riptides are ignored and my sides get lit up. Honestly for the most part usually pathfinders and the missile drones die. Than broadside focus follwed by the riptides. However I tend to be very aggresive with my tides which draws attention from my sides.
I played against Tau and play Tau and the major 2 weakness of the army is overloading multiple assaults on the units and if you out 36" Tau can be out shot by Necrons. Gosh that pissed me off. Sadly I mentioned it before with Tau vs Darkeldar. Staying outside most of the armies 36" range is a major weakness armies like guard can exploit. This weakness shows in 2/3 of the missions that are available. I played in my first 6th tournament I came in 3rd, but the problem I had vs greyknights and necrons was both players exploited my 36" range on the bulk of my army and stayed out of the 15" triple tap range. The greyknight player stayed 1" out of my triple tap all game long.
The most important point is objectives was where the 36" range really hurted. Both players took advantage of mobility and made sure they didn't get hit by my full army. Both games was really hard fought. One should had been a tie, I didn't read a condition I could had easily met, and the other one was a tie, but a ruling due to my squad dropping to leadership 7 cause me ethereal decline, but I argued his leadership gives all units 10.
Anyway I am totally revamping my Tau and using more ranged units pass 36" and more mobility.
Funny that the Ehereal powers I use the most is either triple rapid fire or run and than fire snap shots. The run and fire snap shots helped against both armies who was keeping outside of 36".
With daemons I seen either hound rush or flying circus just dominate. Even Tau have problems with both list. I almost forgot the plague drones with beast of nurgle crap with endurance and +3 invulnerable saves on either two.
In my area it's necrons, greyknights, or daemons that really dominates hard. For example last tournament had 4 daemon players in it. This one had I think 5 greyknight and 5 necrons with one of everything else.
The problem with the tournament was all the players was from the other part of town. I expected grey knights and crons, but not that many. In 2 weeks I will go to the other part of town and play down their with my revised list. Intersting enough my Tau Daemons did pretty well. What cost me the game with necrons was if I didn't roll a one due to desperate allies I would had the relic and won or at least possibly come in second since I would had gotten points for the relic tie andhe would had lost points.
I think eldar is better than Dark Angels and slightly worst than Chaos Space Marines.
I mean Harlequin have Stealth and Shrouded but can ALSO cast Veil of Tears as a power to make you take a spotting test. If you are more than 14" away they would be invisible until just outside charge range.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on June 03, 2013, 12:30:06 PM
I mean Harlequin have Stealth and Shrouded but can ALSO cast Veil of Tears as a power to make you take a spotting test. If you are more than 14" away they would be invisible until just outside charge range.
They already have stealth and shrounding. Have to re check. Umm that's what I said. It up to 24" 2d6x2= 24". The average range is 14". You still can get shot up, but the other player takes a risk of wasting shots shooting at them. Me I just move up 6" and hopefully fry you, well rapid fire since you should be out of flame range.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on June 02, 2013, 10:40:52 PM
With regards to guardians I think its something they needed from a game stand point. Without it they would have to drop them to a seriously low points value and then we would see hordes of them which really just doesnt fit for eldar at all.
I disagree.
All they needed was a six inch range increase to the Shuiken Catapult, and to stay at their current cost. Storm Guardians were already solid, so they just needed grenades, and no further changes. I play tested these alterations with friends, against a variety of different armies, and they solved all the problems with Guardians.
QuoteFrom a fluff stand point I think they should be BS/WS4. Every guardian in an eldar army is an eldar who has walked the path of the warrior so at some point in their lives they have been BS/WS4. They have probably spent a normal mortals lifetime as an aspect warrior. Sure they could be hundreds of years removed from doing that but they are all also psychic and ive no doubt with their advanced minds and bodies can recall their training and their bodies will quickly get used to the rigours of war again with probably only a few months training.
That's incorrect. It is not true to say that every Guardian has walked the Path of the Warrior. Previous Eldar codices, and the Path series novels confirm this. In addition, even for those who have followed the path, they don't keep up the necessary levels of training to have the same level of WS/BS as an Aspect Warrior. The background justification is, therefore, not there, and there's certainly nothing that I have seen in the new codex which changes the background in this respect.
Quote from: Irisado on June 03, 2013, 03:07:06 PM
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on June 02, 2013, 10:40:52 PM
With regards to guardians I think its something they needed from a game stand point. Without it they would have to drop them to a seriously low points value and then we would see hordes of them which really just doesnt fit for eldar at all.
I disagree.
All they needed was a six inch range increase to the Shuiken Catapult, and to stay at their current cost. Storm Guardians were already solid, so they just needed grenades, and no further changes. I play tested these alterations with friends, against a variety of different armies, and they solved all the problems with Guardians.
QuoteFrom a fluff stand point I think they should be BS/WS4. Every guardian in an eldar army is an eldar who has walked the path of the warrior so at some point in their lives they have been BS/WS4. They have probably spent a normal mortals lifetime as an aspect warrior. Sure they could be hundreds of years removed from doing that but they are all also psychic and ive no doubt with their advanced minds and bodies can recall their training and their bodies will quickly get used to the rigours of war again with probably only a few months training.
That's incorrect. It is not true to say that every Guardian has walked the Path of the Warrior. Previous Eldar codices, and the Path series novels confirm this. In addition, even for those who have followed the path, they don't keep up the necessary levels of training to have the same level of WS/BS as an Aspect Warrior. The background justification is, therefore, not there, and there's certainly nothing that I have seen in the new codex which changes the background in this respect.
I forgot to mention that guardians in the eye of terror was bs 4 or ws 4. If you look at the codex and compare it to th uthrwe strike force from eye of terror it's very simmilar due to bs 4 vypers, etc due to bs 4 guardians. Instead of here is uthrwe army. The just buffed the army in away it is already one. You can easily do Uthrwe, illaden, Ranger, Saim Han. The only one you can't do is the elite heavy army as troops. To be honest I wish they did the same with marines.
To me it makes sence to do it that way instead of buying or even trying to deal with black guardians. Just easier to make them all black.
I don't see 12" being a problem. They can move, run, shoot at average range of 21" with 24" being possible. 2nd turn shooting is very easy to do. 1st turn shooting is god if they move up.
I think eldar benefits more as never going first and letting your opponent go second. Unless vs shooting armies if you got first you just have to go through on roundd of shooting befor eyou shoot back. Going second means two rounds of getting shot at to get within shooting range.
Thing is, this army can, with a little thought, shred troops with little effort. The sheer number of AP2 it can throw out is horrific. Add a couple of wraithknights with some warlocks restoring their wounds as they are gradually whittled down, and you have some SERIOUS problems.
That sniper character is pretty nasty aswell. He can pull a Marbo AND THEN bring his friends. Pretty cheap for what he can do.
Oh, and the wave serpent too. Cheaper and massivly more powerful and versatile. Almost immune to penetrating hits and potential 7 S7 shots on top of its weapons. That's just evil.
I was sure I read in the new codex that every guardian had been an aspect warrior, I thought it was just a little retcon but having re read it, I cant find that at all so must have been mistaken. Although I think it would be stupid of a craftworld not to sign up ex aspect warriors first. So a good number of guardians really should be ex aspect warriors and ive already covered the whole not having trained in a while thing.
What the new codex does say is that more and more eldar are walking the path of the warrior. Which again would make more former aspect warriors, I think there would be enough in guardian units to justify a majority WS/BS4.
Quote from: Chicop76 on June 03, 2013, 04:38:57 PM
I forgot to mention that guardians in the eye of terror was bs 4 or ws 4. If you look at the codex and compare it to th uthrwe strike force from eye of terror it's very simmilar due to bs 4 vypers, etc due to bs 4 guardians. Instead of here is uthrwe army. The just buffed the army in away it is already one. You can easily do Uthrwe, illaden, Ranger, Saim Han. The only one you can't do is the elite heavy army as troops. To be honest I wish they did the same with marines.
I'm completely confused by what you're trying argue here, and what Marines have got to do with any of this ????
The point about the BS is neither here nor there, because that whole supplement was dedicated to Ulthwé Eldar, who've had Black Guardians for years. That concept dates back to second edition Epic Space Marine, so there's precedent for that, but only for Ulthwé. For the Guardians of other craftworlds (outside of vehicles), there's no precedent for this at all.
QuoteTo me it makes sence to do it that way instead of buying or even trying to deal with black guardians. Just easier to make them all black.
It makes no sense when Black Guardians do not exist outside of Ulthwé.
QuoteI don't see 12" being a problem. They can move, run, shoot at average range of 21" with 24" being possible. 2nd turn shooting is very easy to do. 1st turn shooting is god if they move up.
It's a problem if you take a weapon platform, because the two roles don't match very well. This was the problem with them in the last two codices (although it wasn't so noticeable in third edition), and as much as I found ways to mitigate it, not tacking this problem was, in my view, lazy games design by GW.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on June 03, 2013, 06:52:59 PM
Although I think it would be stupid of a craftworld not to sign up ex aspect warriors first. So a good number of guardians really should be ex aspect warriors and ive already covered the whole not having trained in a while thing.
Given that Guardians are, for the most part, not former Aspect Warriors (see the sources I mentioned previously for further details), then most Craftworlds are not going to have that luxury, so this idea that you could somehow have majority WS/BS that's the same as an Aspect Warrior just doesn't have anywhere near the kind of support from the literature that you're trying to suggest it does.
I think its a lot like high elves in fantasy, even though they are just militia, the fact that they are so long lived, the fact that they are elves/eldar will make them as good as even elite warriors of other races.
As ive said, what the new codex does say is that a lot more eldar are taking the path of the warrior, which does mean more former aspect warriors to help the guardian pool. Couple that with hundreds-thousands of years of training [even if its only part time] and a race that is already very graceful, athletic, great eye sight etc I think would be enough to put them on the level of say a storm trooper who would have say an average of 20 years heavy training.
Plus you have to consider that something like WS/BS is very broad, just because they are the same BS as a space marine doesnt mean they are as good. Just that they are better than your average guardsmen. When you consider that BS3 on guard represent everything from some poorly trained regiments to some of the very best like Cadians its not a jump for guardians to be BS4 along with something like an aspect warrior as it doesnt mean they are as good, just that its near enough for game purposes.
Eye of Terror Codex the guardians and most of the vehicles was b4.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on June 04, 2013, 07:12:56 PM
I think its a lot like high elves in fantasy, even though they are just militia, the fact that they are so long lived, the fact that they are elves/eldar will make them as good as even elite warriors of other races.
As ive said, what the new codex does say is that a lot more eldar are taking the path of the warrior, which does mean more former aspect warriors to help the guardian pool. Couple that with hundreds-thousands of years of training [even if its only part time] and a race that is already very graceful, athletic, great eye sight etc I think would be enough to put them on the level of say a storm trooper who would have say an average of 20 years heavy training.
The comparison with High Elves is irrelevant in my view, because that's a completely different set of parameters that you're dealing with when you're referring to Warhammer, so let's stick to Warhammer 40,000.
What you're missing with your point about more Eldar walking the path is the preceding paragraph on page 10. This points out that Guardian militia are drawn from the civilian population. Eldar who walk the path are Aspect Warriors, not Guardians.
Guardians having their old WS/BS values were as good as a standard Imperial Guardsman who is a full time soldier. That, in itself, showed just how good Eldar Guardians were. The increase in stats is, therefore, unjustified. There is no way that a civilian Guardian could be as well trained as an Aspect Warrior.
QuotePlus you have to consider that something like WS/BS is very broad, just because they are the same BS as a space marine doesnt mean they are as good. Just that they are better than your average guardsmen. When you consider that BS3 on guard represent everything from some poorly trained regiments to some of the very best like Cadians its not a jump for guardians to be BS4 along with something like an aspect warrior as it doesnt mean they are as good, just that its near enough for game purposes.
If the BS is equal then, in terms of the rules, they are just as good. That is what is crucial. We are not playing a game which uses percentile dice where you can have a wide variety of different values, and translate background into stats more effectively, albeit still imperfectly. Using a D6 system, and scores out of ten, is very limiting, and, for that reason, there has to be an interval of one to distinguish elite, and regular, units appropriately, and this is no longer the case.
Quote from: Chicop76 on June 04, 2013, 07:29:55 PM
Eye of Terror Codex the guardians and most of the vehicles was b4.
It's not relevant because that was an Ulthwé Strike Force army list, and, as I've previously mentioned, Ulthwé is not representative of Guardians on other Eldar craftworlds.
They just in my opinion just made Eldar Uthrewe for intents and purposes.
I haven't read the 6th fluff. I remember 3rd fluff and guardins was your citizens who took up arms. Like the national guard.
I find the new Codex to be sort of a mixed bag.
A few things were incredibly nerfed (such as the Runes of Warding), and although there were changes, the core remains the same.
I'm just not sure (again) how useful the new models will be.
The Fighters seem just too fragile for what they can do, and the Wraithknight is huge, but can still only fire two weapons a turn and has a 3+ save...
That aside, I think we have many, many solid units, with the Farseer, Jetbikes and (oddly enough) Warp Spiders catching my eye. Also, the Fire Prism seems finally viable due to it's triple fire option.
I'm glad that it's not an easy to use Codex. It shouldn't be. Eldar were always about careful builds with synergy holding everything together. I was worried about mass cheap Guardians, but thankfully there's other very nice units that fit in well.
Overall, I'm pleased and eager to see what they can do.
Best,
-BT
Good catch on the knight only shooting two weapons. I guess if you go combat you can pay more points to shoot. Heck if I take one it's much cheaper since I will keep it as is. I can't pass up on 2 strength 10 shots. Keeping that in mind I might get anti infantry as a secondary option.
With 3 knights that's like 6 strength 10 railguns heading your way.
You need to look t darkreapers. The exarch have skyfire and can deny jinx saves.
I don't know. If you can validate the darkeldar flyer than the eldar fighter is just as good. Armour 11 is paper instead of tissue and the eldar figher can dish out 4 strength 8 shots that re roll armour pen with a +4 jink save.
Quote from: BigToof on June 05, 2013, 02:49:30 AM
I find the new Codex to be sort of a mixed bag.
A few things were incredibly nerfed (such as the Runes of Warding), and although there were changes, the core remains the same.
This codex actually reminds me of the Chaos Marines codex to be honest.
My impressions of the book;
1) everyone have gotten cheaper and have new rules, the Eldar got the new rules but have a jump in price overall.
2) The damage potential of Eldar armies have increased significantly, but their defenses suffered as a result. Battle Focus is monstrously good, especially on War Walkers as this allows you to do a semblance of the Crystal Targeting Matrix of the old days with the Vypers but now you can do it with every unit that have this rule. Also quite a number of the vehicles actually improved, with the Wave Serpent is now essentially similar in function to a Falcon due to that weird shield weapon of theirs.
3) I feel that with the general improvements, every craftworld army BUT Biel-Tan got a boost. A full Saim-hann army is extremely viable, Iyanden got the most out of this book, Alaitoc essentially have their flagship hero to make everyone pathfinders if they so choose, and Ulthwee' flavor is essentially back in all but name, especially with the Guardians having Black Guardian stats of the old days.
4) Footdar gains the most benefits out of the new rules, as most of the improvements are on infantry units.
5) Psychic powers have buffs in general, but the method in which one gets those spells are the thing that nerfed the Farseer in many ways. Psychic defense is also significantly weakened, though i could understand why the nerf is there to begin with. Tzeentchian Daemons are literally locked down when they face Eldar, and thus the remedy is devised to prevent such an event from happening.
Quote from: BigToof on June 05, 2013, 02:49:30 AM
I'm glad that it's not an easy to use Codex. It shouldn't be. Eldar were always about careful builds with synergy holding everything together. I was worried about mass cheap Guardians, but thankfully there's other very nice units that fit in well.
Overall, I'm pleased and eager to see what they can do.
For me, I am a little more disappointed with the book as a result of the rules execution. Some glaring problems could be seen with some unit in the previous codex and they are not fixed at all. The psychic abilities of the race is actually lower than what I have expected, and I was expecting a wargear that could actually limit the randomization of rolling on the psychic chart.
Fortunately for me, the main concepts that I seek to take advantage of from the Eldar codex is still intact and thus I am not truly disappointed as a whole.
Quote from: Chicop76 on June 04, 2013, 09:35:02 PM
They just in my opinion just made Eldar Uthrewe for intents and purposes.
I haven't read the 6th fluff. I remember 3rd fluff and guardins was your citizens who took up arms. Like the national guard.
It doesn't matter which version of the background you read, it's all more or less the same as far as regular Guardians (i.e. all those which are not from Ulthwé) are concerned. There's nothing in any of the background to suggest that Guardians have the same level of skill as Aspect Warriors.
I'm undecided about whether Guardians deserve BS4 or not but I do have a possible way of thinking about it that might make it seem like a less significant step. There is no way a Guardian is as good as an aspect warrior at shooting. I think we can all agree on that. But the difference is not enormous (like the difference between an exarch and an ork for example). As has already been discussed there are also only six sides on a D6 and they have to cover the whole range of shooting abilities in the 40k universe for the abstraction of the game. Theoretically there are still many divisions but practically there are only 5 (BS1-5 as BS6 and up are a pain to play with) and most units are squashed into 3 - BS2, BS3, BS4 with generally only characters and generals with BS5 and up. So on those grounds it doesn't seem too terrible to have Guardians and Aspect warriors with the same BS. However, what hasn't really been considered is the effect weapons might have on shooting ability.
Just as an idea - perhaps one can think of Guardians' poorer shooting abilities relative to aspect warriors being reflected by the weapons they carry - For example the difference between Dire Avengers' and Guardians' shuriken catapults is their range but you could think about it as the range at which the warriors are able to effectively fire their weapons rather than just the range of the weapon itself. Thought of this way, the small difference between Guardians and aspect warriors might be that Guardians would not be able to keep an Avenger catapult accurate at full range whilst an aspect warrior can.
As for the new codex in general - so far what I've seen seems a nice update. In general I don't feel like anything has changed too much - most changes address problems from the old codex and while they don't fix them completely they have made them better. For example Banshees could never make it into combat, they're still going to have a really difficult time but they've got a little help with the extra run distance and they're cheaper so they're less painful to lose. Similarly Shining spears are cheaper but still very niche and don't have enough attacks to be competitive. So those two units aren't going to make it into tournament lists but they're not so awful that you'll never be able to find a way to use them.
Your point about weapon ranges is an interesting one, but I still don't agree with it, because you're effectively dealing with two separate weapons (the Shuriken Catapult, and the Avenger Catapult). I think that your point would be more valid if both used the same weapon, but a different range was given to allow for the Dire Avengers being more accurate at longer distances, but that's not the way 40K works.
The problem with the argument about WS/BS and values is that Guardians are just troops. They receive basic training, and are as good as a serving soldier with a regular training regime (e.g. a regular Guardsmen), and this reflected in citizens having the same WS/BS as a fully trained soldier. This model has now been broken. To have civilians who are now as skilled as the craftworld's dedicated warriors, is just not right (in terms of background and game play) in my opinion.
What your missing is that more people taking the path of the warrior means more ex aspect warriors once they leave that path.
Plus these civilians could have been taking part in military operations for over 9 thousand years.
Im actually starting to think that Wraithknights are just not going to cut it because of that 3+ save. I actually see bike councils backed up by wave serpents as the most competative eldar build.
As far Nightspear, theres no way he passes his ability to his unit. He passes his infiltrate on, but only HE has the other rule and as its not a USR he doesnt pass it on.
I think what we seem to be not focussing on is how the actual rules work, rather than the fluff justification for it.
The sheer amount of AP2 and Auto Wound potential this army has now is brutal. Given that 20 out of the 63 weapons in this codex are AP2 or 1 and another half dozen on top of that are AP3, we seem to be overlooking the fact that there is NOTHING that can reliably stand in the way of the frankly dirty amount of firepower this army can throw at all targets it could ever come up against.
Hordes? Everyone gets 2 shots and a good amount of AP2.
MCs? Autowounding, Distortion and AP2
Tanks? Heywire, Distortion, Lance and AP2
Meq/Teq? Mass fire and AP2
In return the strategic placement of Warlocks with the right powers can restore a Wraithknight to almost full health every turn if it isn't killed outright. And even 2 could restore enough wounds to make killing one a nightmare.
Jetbikes can move, turboboost 36" and STILL fire their weapons normally thanks to Battle Focus.
And while it may cost a bit, it is entirely possible to have an Autarch with an Instant Death causing Sword who can teleport his way very rapidly across the table and assassinate pretty much anyone he wants.
This codex, not counting luck of the rolls, is amazingly powerful, almost the the point of rendering everything else obsolete. Anything you can do, the Eldar can do faster, more accuratly, stronger or any combination of the 3.
Now, I admit, I havn't played against it in a full scale game, but even trying some dice hammer against units that I chose specifically to kill the Eldar unit in question, I got brutally beaten down.
Make no mistake, this codex is likely to be a game breaker just as soon as people crack it properly.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on June 05, 2013, 06:04:45 PM
What your missing is that more people taking the path of the warrior means more ex aspect warriors once they leave that path.
Plus these civilians could have been taking part in military operations for over 9 thousand years.
I have still yet to read any compelling evidence that retired Aspect Warriors would continue to train sufficiently to retain the skills, and combat capability, which they possessed as an Aspect Warrior. Becoming a civilian again means that they just won't have the same skill level which they did, and it's likely to drop off pretty quickly.
I just realized I didn't mention the possible 14 twin linked shots frm the serpent for only 130 points :facepalm001: well 9-14 shots.
I really dont think its as powerful as you think Jayne. Bikes cant shoot after turbo boosting as turbo boosting isnt a run.
Wave Serpents are one of the really nice things in the book but I dont think there is anything else that is a massive problem for the gunlines out there at the minute. Bike Councils can be great but you need at least two different powers going off every turn, one on LD8. Plus if you dont go first and dont have really good LOS blocking terrain they are going to die. Wraithknights are going to be hard countered by lots of sniper rifles.
I think they are pretty good but I dont think they will match Tau.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on June 06, 2013, 01:33:47 PM
Bike Councils can be great but you need at least two different powers going off every turn, one on LD8. Plus if you dont go first and dont have really good LOS blocking terrain they are going to die.
Not to mention the Seer councils live and die by Fortune. I really do not understand why anyone would take a Seer Council now that you would rather take more guns.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on June 05, 2013, 07:31:55 PM
The sheer amount of AP2 and Auto Wound potential this army has now is brutal. Given that 20 out of the 63 weapons in this codex are AP2 or 1 and another half dozen on top of that are AP3, we seem to be overlooking the fact that there is NOTHING that can reliably stand in the way of the frankly dirty amount of firepower this army can throw at all targets it could ever come up against.
The weapons are really short-ranged though, even with Battle Focus.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on June 05, 2013, 07:31:55 PM
This codex, not counting luck of the rolls, is amazingly powerful, almost the the point of rendering everything else obsolete. Anything you can do, the Eldar can do faster, more accuratly, stronger or any combination of the 3.
But not surviving an attrition war. Eldar are flimsy, and most of their defensive abilities have gone down from the previous codex.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on June 05, 2013, 07:31:55 PM
Make no mistake, this codex is likely to be a game breaker just as soon as people crack it properly.
There's no saying this for sure. It could be a solid tier 2 codex for all we know. The thing about new codices is that there is always the 'scare' phase, but the true test is after 2-3 months after the codex is released that we see the true worth of the codex. Some are better than others, while some are only strong during the phase of the particular meta at the time.
The only problems I see from the book are these
Wave serpent possible 14 strength 6-7 twin linked shooting at 130 points
9 man bike squad at 183 points with 9 strength 6 rending shots at 24"
Wrathknight with 2 strength 10 ap 1 36" range weapons
Those 3 units are the only wories I really have for the book. Fire dragons is a worry, but they will be in x serpent which would be focused on and they die. Same almost go for anything else.
Throw in warlocks with the bikes they become annoying. Try denying 6 units cover saves or an entie army.
The problem with eldar they can do the hound tactic with the bikes. Th major differance is the bikes can shoot. Also sitting at a + cover save which can be a 2+ is even worst. Yes we can deny cover, but if 54 bikes park in your face can you deny all 6 squads cover while shooting at them..
What is interesting if they go first they 54 bikes can unleash a lot of fire power with all their shots thanks to run.
If they go second they simply deploy out of range. With 12 + 18+ 2d6 movement they can easily posention them selves to your weak points and flank you hard
Bikes cant run so they cant get that extra range from battle focus.
I think its all on the serpents really, they even fill in for anti air, they are again fairly fragile when going second though.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on June 06, 2013, 07:34:28 PM
Bikes cant run so they cant get that extra range from battle focus.
I think its all on the serpents really, they even fill in for anti air, they are again fairly fragile when going second though.
Ahhh. I forgot lol. They still can move witin 12" fire and back out 2d6"
Not what I'm hearing. The serpents still only can be glance on a +2 and have a +5 cover save. It's a lot of glancing and pens you have to do against armour 12.
Saw the eldar in action today, both from facing them and also using them (albeit in their allied capacity for my part).
I saw how two Wraithlords ignored the IG blob shooting at it and just bashed their brains senseless in one game winning the game for the Eldar player, and in another I saw how scorpions could actually kill space marines even before they strike and collapsing the Greenwing line. In both games I saw how amazing Warp Spiders were as they jump, run and shoot/shoot and run, and jump some more and also how Serpents literally became the bane of transports that are not prepared for them with their weird shield weapon. So far I have not seen the Wraithknight nor the Crimson Hunters, as all the Eldar players today are not playing with the new toys.
As for my own side of thing, Dark Eldar with Eldar secondary proved to be quite a nasty surprise for the other Eldar player as the twin-linking of weapons proved to be utterly scary and due to Battle Focus, the War Walkers are able to keep up with the rest of the Dark Eldar army while providing firing support.
I actually like how each Eldar army that were in action today were so different from each other in both form and function and they all worked wonderfully in their particular roles. Kinda proved the point that it is a rather synergistic army that needs some thought in building the list to make the whole army work as a great machine.
Key units that I find very interesting;
1) Jetbikes - everyone is playing with them and it is a very good aggressive unit and also defensive unit depending on what you want to do with them
2) Battle Focus: this thing here is the bee's knees of the codex. This is an amazing ability bar none.
3) Warp Spiders: These guys are nasty. I am seeing them going everywhere killing things, and one of these actually became a very good harasser against my Dark Eldar army. A very effective unit in the Eldar codex, would not be surprised that people start to spam them.
4) Farseer and Spiritseer: The farseer on jetbike is a staple more or less, as in all the Eldar games today everyone is throwing out twin-linking like it is going out of style. The spiritseer and its aggressive buff/debuff effect helped the Mech/Wraith army kill a score of imperial Guard and breaking the 'defenses' of the Aegis line.
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on June 06, 2013, 01:33:47 PM
I think they are pretty good but I dont think they will match Tau.
I still think you are giving Tau way too much credit. A gun line is only going to win games if you march right into it.