Taking on New Tau, what will work?

[BlackPowderChocobo]

Nevert hought you'd be able to say that huh?

[The Man They Call Jayne]

Nope. Took me completly by suprise. His Warlord Trait isn't up to much, but my current HQ load seems to be Farsight and Aun'Va ironically enough. In bigger games I run a small ally group of SM scount led by a Jump Librarian with Gate of Infinity. He joins Farsight and his Bodyguards and then the mayhem begins. No scatter on arrival and use gate to move 24" a turn risk free.

Now THAT is how you travel.

[Arguleon-veq]

The Ethereal/Fireblade combo does stack, there is nothing to suggest it doesnt or even that it wasnt the intention.

That said, its really not an effective or viable combo. 12 Fire Warriors with two characters like that in is too many points and VP's for such a fragile unit, sure they have a 4+ save but that will not cut it, Ive not got an army that wont shoot that unit down in a turn and if im going first that means ive netted 3VP's [Ethereal, First Blood, Warlord]. Sure its dangerous but only if your silly enough to walk into 15'' without having crippled the unit.

Its not gimmicky combos like that making new Tau such a threat its lists like the one in my original post, were the overwhelming firepower is very durable and kills anything besides AV14.

[Pottsey]

I still do not get how you are arguing they are that cheap when 48shots from that one squad costs more than 48shots from normal fire warriors. The abilities need to stack just to be semi useful as we are already paying for what is effectively zero benefit and you want to make the ability weaker?

All you are doing is paying more than the price of two troops squads, having the same firepower as two troops squads but having half as many modules, half as many wounds and being worth extra VP. How is that cheap or overpowered? Or another way to look at it, those two HQ cost more then the price of an entire troop squad and have around the same fire power as an entire troop squad only with extra disadvantages.

I would go as far as to say with the extra cost, next to zero benefit and extra disadvantages it is not worth stacking those two ability's as overall that build hurts our army. If anything the two abilities are underpowered for the cost. As far as I can see you are pretty much always better off spending those points on an extra firewarrior squad.

It's cheap because it is quite easy, even in an 1850 or 2000pt game, to max out your troop choices and fit in a Fireblade and Ethereal, so you're not choosing this ability over more Firewarriors, rather you're combining this ability with lots of Firewarriors. In fact, you can take 60 Firewarriors, an Ethereal and a Fireblade for approximately 700pts, leaving a sizeable portion of your army for anti-tank weapons and upgrades. I realise that the 4 shots/model will only apply to one unit, but that is still a significant boost for very little cost and, to my knowledge, you can't get 10 S5 shots for a Commander, without adding on the cost of Drones etc. Hell, drop one of those Firewarrior units and add some Kroot you can hide in a forest if you like, not as if you're likely to be short on points, and the Ethereal's ability applies to Kroot with Pulse rounds.

An extra 10 S5 shots is far from "next to zero benefit" and to claim that these abilities are "underpowered" while trying to argue that they stack is nothing short of ludicrous.

It is not ludicrous if you take it from the point of view I said compared to extra troops or even extra drones. In the vast majority of games stacking those ability's will be a waste of time and waste of points.
You pay extra points to be worth up to 3 extra VP for up to a total of 5 VP in some games, not being able to move and fire all the extra shots, lose 12 wounds over extra troops or drones, lose all the cool stuff the battlesuits commander can do. All that for zero extra damage or extra shots over buying extra troops or extra drones. If you are already maxed on troops chances are you are better off spending those points on something better as well. Even a commander with Burst Cannon and Ion Blaster would be better over that combo. Unless you are maxed on troops and drones why would you ever take that combo? It puts you are a disadvantage most of the time.

Can you please stop calling it very little cost. You are more than doubling the unit cost to double the firepower. How is more then doubleling a units cost classed as low cost? 12 drones spread around would give you the same extra 24shots for the same cost without any of the disadvantages of that combo.

[Chicop76]

One well placed pie plate that ignores cover and has ap 4 will devistate a Tau squad, Hellhound anybody. That said I think putting your eggs in one basket is not a great ideal.

Also looking at an Etheral is 2 vps, Fireblade 2vps, and fire warriors 1 vp. Guess who I am going to shoot at and kill for 5vps, 6vps if I get firstblood, I included warlord on Fire blade since a 3 vp Etheral is crazy. Thumbing through Dark Angels an Etheral can be possibly 4 vps, so in some cases if all your eggs is in one basket that is a potential of 7 vps. That's a lot of vps that is not that hard to kill. In fact very easy to kill. Realistically that's 5 vps easy, and when vps doesn't matter it is still 3 vps at the least and line breaker on Tau wouldn't be too hard to pull off. While Tau may struggle killing the warlord and line breaker.

I think the etheral is still sound since he can squad hop and doesn't change your synergy. The fireblade the more I think about him he really doesn't bring much to the game with an Etheral. All you doing is making your fire warriors or pathfinders more of a target than they really need to be.

1. You putting high vps in the squads.
2. You have force multipliers in said squads
3. They are the easiest to kill than anything else
4. They are scoring

Etheral and commander is more viable, or even darkstrider. The problem with the fire blade you have to be static and it makes your firewarriors more trgetable. With strider he gives your guys a possible out while stayin manuverable. I personally rather 36 rapid fire shots on marines that wound on 2s. Thinking about it more strider allows you to even wound t 9 models with tau and MCs on 4s.

A pie plate that ignores cover is going to shaft most units, but there's more AP5 ignore cover blasts than there are AP4. Like I said, Tau have more than average survivability.

The thing is, ok, it's 2 victory points if you take out the Firewarriors and Fireblade/Ethereal. However it's not that easy to take them out.

Throw in the improved AP of the Pulse weapons and anything with a 5+ or 6+ save is going to be MUCH worse off against Tau than they would be against Guard. Throw in markerlights to remove cover (an improvement on the Guard's ability to force rerolls) and BS boosts and the Tau have a much better time of it.

guard still surpass Tau in mass fire. The differance is Tau can focus fire with less troops. To do what you saying you're pouring like 300 points to do so. While guard can lay down a ton of shots all over.

Hmm what can get through cover and is ap 4.

Heavy flamers which almost every army has and some which have it in spades.
Helldrake
Dreadknight
Hellhound
The flame template for hq space marines
auspex lowers cover, meaning assault cannon and heavy bolter options
the landraider with ap 3 flamers
liquidfiers from dark eldar
dark reaper exarch
i think fire dragon exarch too
skullcannon
devildog
cryptek flamer
calladius assassin
incinerators
flamers of tzeentch

you also have
a ton of barrage weapons
hive guard
whrilwinds
d cannon
re rolling cover saves
marbo with demo charge
etc.
Their is a lot of ap 4 covER SAVE DENial weapons out there. heck their are a lot of ap 4 or better weapons out there period,

[Scout Sergeant Mkoll]

guard still surpass Tau in mass fire. The differance is Tau can focus fire with less troops. To do what you saying you're pouring like 300 points to do so. While guard can lay down a ton of shots all over.

Hmm what can get through cover and is ap 4.

Heavy flamers which almost every army has and some which have it in spades.
Helldrake
Dreadknight
Hellhound
The flame template for hq space marines
auspex lowers cover, meaning assault cannon and heavy bolter options
the landraider with ap 3 flamers
liquidfiers from dark eldar
dark reaper exarch
i think fire dragon exarch too
skullcannon
devildog
cryptek flamer
calladius assassin
incinerators
flamers of tzeentch

you also have
a ton of barrage weapons
hive guard
whrilwinds
d cannon
re rolling cover saves
marbo with demo charge
etc.
Their is a lot of ap 4 covER SAVE DENial weapons out there. heck their are a lot of ap 4 or better weapons out there period,

Guard win in terms of mass fire because it's significantly inferior to Tau firepower. Guard get more shots, Tau shots hurt a Feth-load more. So no, the Tau do not need to be capable of pumping out 4 shots a model. Guard can get 3 S3 AP- shots a turn. Tau can match that number but with S5 AP5 shots. Tell me, why exactly do you feel the Tau need to be able to pump out more shots than Imperial Guard when their shots are already far more likely to do damage? There is no need for it, at all.

Yes, thank you for the list of weapons to bring against Firewarrior spam. But remind me, at what point did I say there was only a handful of AP4 weapons which deny cover? Oh, that's right. I didn't. I simply stated that there were even more which ignored 5+ armour, giving Tau above average survivability because they actually get saves against normal flamers, Whirlwind incendiary shells etc. Not to mention the fact that against Bolters and every other AP5 or worse weapon out there the Tau armour is better than cover, which is the only save most units are likely to get.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

Don't forget though that there is more to an army that just troops. Move away from them and Guard have vastly superior firepower, the ability to lay down over a dozen large blasts a turn, most of which will kill anything they touch.

[Chicop76]

Don't forget though that there is more to an army that just troops. Move away from them and Guard have vastly superior firepower, the ability to lay down over a dozen large blasts a turn, most of which will kill anything they touch.

yup. tau maxes out with like 72 troops wile guard not including special teams etc. easil maxes out at 385 guards men for troops, add special teams it gets up 457 and heavy weapons teams can make that almost 500 models in the troop slot. My point is i think rougly 1,500 shots from various models scare me more than a measly 200-300 shots. not to mention the amout of armour and vehicles that they can shell out over tau is mind blowing.

The main differance is tau has less fire power, but have the ability to lay down percision fire power. If you want a unit or two dead Tau more than likely can take out a unit or two that you want to get rid off. I seriously doubt tjhat Tau can blow away armies in one turn or two like guard can.

What guard can do is dish out mass fire power all over, it may not be at BS 10, i say that cause my commander was bs 10 in my first game with Tau. Any way Tau is like the new Daemons. You have to pick a target and move to the next. Anything that get's across the board fast and do a lot of damage has to die first and then you slowly go from there. If like say 4 bloodletters are left. Why bother shooting them. Just let them assault and you will overwatch them to death. if one gets in battle fire warriors are capable of killing a letter in combat, just not a bunch of them. D- grenades makes life dandy with one attack. with 11 fire warriors hitting back that's 4 hits and 1 wound that needs to be saved on a 5+ while in the case of marines it's 3 wounds which can kill a marine if they are not ws 5.

My point is guard can shoot and wipe out armies turn one while Tau can not.

the Etheral and Fireblade combo while nice does limit your army and puts all your eggs in one basket. I can see two Etherals simply due to the leadership 10 bubble and stubborn.

Oh with Aun'va although he can't join squads Shadowsun can join his providing a possible +2 cover save. So even if you are hit by a cover save denying weapon it is a chance you can deny the wounds if you fail any saves. the awesome part is you will more than likely will be able to save tx to 3+ invulnerable saving drones.

[Scout Sergeant Mkoll]

Right, so essentially, your argument boils down to "It's fine for Tau to get 4 shots/model because there's something out there that's worse"? I'm sorry, but no. That's a pathetically flawed argument. A basic line model, like a Firewarrior, should not be capable of packing that much firepower. They really, really shouldn't. Even if it is "only 1 unit that gets that and the rest get 3" it's bloody stupid. Tau have the best line weapon, for both power and range, in the game, the best basic armour of any non-Space Marine faction and now you want them to have the best rate of fire too, all for under 10pts a model and 2 cheap as chips HQ models? I'm sorry but there's just no way that's acceptable.

[Pottsey]

Right, so essentially, your argument boils down to "It's fine for Tau to get 4 shots/model because there's something out there that's worse"? I'm sorry, but no. That's a pathetically flawed argument. A basic line model, like a Firewarrior, should not be capable of packing that much firepower. They really, really shouldn't. Even if it is "only 1 unit that gets that and the rest get 3" it's bloody stupid. Tau have the best line weapon, for both power and range, in the game, the best basic armour of any non-Space Marine faction and now you want them to have the best rate of fire too, all for under 10pts a model and 2 cheap as chips HQ models? I'm sorry but there's just no way that's acceptable.

Why not? Why is 216 points for 24 firewarriors with 48 shots ok but the HQ version with 48shots for extra points and gives up 3 extra VP and not as mobile not ok? We even have extra disadvantage's built in to the HQ unit. Look at it from a price per shot point of view. Basic firewarriors pay 4.5 points per shot. The HQ firewarriors pay 8.3 points per shot. So how can you call it cheap and how can you call it bloody stupid. That seems perfectly reasonable to me given the extra disadvantage's. How is paying more for less not acceptable?

[Chicop76]

Right, so essentially, your argument boils down to "It's fine for Tau to get 4 shots/model because there's something out there that's worse"? I'm sorry, but no. That's a pathetically flawed argument. A basic line model, like a Firewarrior, should not be capable of packing that much firepower. They really, really shouldn't. Even if it is "only 1 unit that gets that and the rest get 3" it's bloody stupid. Tau have the best line weapon, for both power and range, in the game, the best basic armour of any non-Space Marine faction and now you want them to have the best rate of fire too, all for under 10pts a model and 2 cheap as chips HQ models? I'm sorry but there's just no way that's acceptable.

I don't see Tau as unbeatable. I see them as hard to beat now. I think daemons is slightly more over the top than Tau still. However i think DA and daemons are capable, but i think chaos marines would have a hard time. That being said i tnik out of the 4 codexes that's out right now they to me is the second strongest with DA depending on how you inturpet the rules can possibly out do them and daaemons.

Still I think daemons and da have to bring a good list to go against tau. however i seen really bad tau builds and won't say tau is an easy list to play.

The combo isn't as bad as others in the codex. Also it's a huge investment when you can simply just take more firewarriors or pathfinders or sniper teams. It's not ga,e breaking nor op. Now if yu can do that to plasma weapons, etc. than that would be something different.

[Scout Sergeant Mkoll]

Why not? Why is 216 points for 24 firewarriors with 48 shots ok but the HQ version with 48shots for extra points and gives up 3 extra VP and not as mobile not ok? We even have extra disadvantage's built in to the HQ unit. Look at it from a price per shot point of view. Basic firewarriors pay 4.5 points per shot. The HQ firewarriors pay 8.3 points per shot. So how can you call it cheap and how can you call it bloody stupid. That seems perfectly reasonable to me given the extra disadvantage's.

Because, as I've pointed out, Tau already have the advantage of the best weapon, and the best armour outside Marines for a very, very reasonable price. Throwing in the best fire rate as well is more than a little excessive, especially when you consider the fact that Tau have Defensive grenades as standard, plus the Supporting Fire rule.

Also, you're only taking into account the fact that you can get another squad for about the same price as the HQs (cheaper if you don't tool them up) As I've pointed out, Tau can fill their Troop slots very cheaply indeed and then use this combination to get a truly sickening level of firepower, which is more not only significantly more powerful, but also more flexible than Guard firepower as it's not 50 models having to fire at one target even long after it's dead, you can split your fire far more easily to take out/weaken multiple threats at once.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

At this point, we are just arguing in circles now. Lets agree to disagree. In tournys that use RAW, its going to happen unless GW FAQs it. In friendly games, use your own judgement.

As has been said, if you are taking 2 HQ just to make 1 FW squad do this, you are a terrible player because you could get far more out of it.

So why dont we get back on ways to fight the Tau?

[Chicop76]

At this point, we are just arguing in circles now. Lets agree to disagree. In tournys that use RAW, its going to happen unless GW FAQs it. In friendly games, use your own judgement.

As has been said, if you are taking 2 HQ just to make 1 FW squad do this, you are a terrible player because you could get far more out of it.

So why dont we get back on ways to fight the Tau?

I can't beqat them. those fire warriors are tooo op. The multiple over watch is a bit of a problem. it's the only thing that makes them scarry. Like my poor thirster all of usden getting lit up by the whole army in the assault phase.

I think grey Knights, Imerial Guard, and maybe Daemons can win against Tau in most games. like I was trying to say before the Guard can simply out shoot Tau. grey Knights can o strength 5 ap 5 as weill with strentgh 7 assault cannons. With Daemons pink horrors can actually dish out strength 6 love and out shoot tau as well. Plus not to mention skullcannons can rape tau squads.

everyone else I do not know are think it will be hard pressed. Tau's strengths are the best anti-air in the game to date, also it's the best in over watch, also they really good at target priority.

however I don't think tau can handle multiple attacks at multiple fronts. Also if assaulted by several unit at once i think the 6" over watch crumbles at that point.

Dark Eldar have the potential to do well, but even the weakest shot in the Tau army can take out their transports. Dark Eldar have lots of advantages over Tau which they possibly can win. I think the problem is how quickly they can get across and multi assault the tau at the same time.

[SILK]

I can't beat them. those fire warriors are too op. The multiple over watch is a bit of a problem. it's the only thing that makes them scary. Like my poor thirster all of usden (?) getting lit up by the whole army in the assault phase.

Firstly, corrected spelling mistakes. Please remember that spell check exists for a reason.

Second of all, consider just what a Fire warrior is. His strengths come in the form of a high strength long ranged weapon, respectable armour and Overwatch. His weaknesses are a mediocre ballistic skill, low toughness and the ability to only just fight their way out of a paper bag. The three positive points and the three negative points go hand in hand. It's up to you as the player to force the negative conditions on your opponent, if you let him play to his strengths, then you are obviously going to auto-lose. His high strength weapon benefits from a boosted ballistic skill. What are you going to do? Sit back and sulk, or go Pathfinder hunting? A S5 gun is all well and good, but it's no use when your opponent is bashing out your brains with a rock, so get up close and personal here and there. Just remember that he has to capture objectives too, and crisis teams can't do all of the work themselves. The covering fire that Tau can put down will be problematic, but do bear in mind that it is only 6", so go cause some panic tests or mortar the cowards as they hide in some ruins. And don't give me "My army is bad at shooting!", I've been playing Orks for 15 years now, and I've learned that every other army out there has got it so much better when it comes to the shooting phase than Ork boyz. Also bear in mind that they can only overwatch once, charge in with some chaff, laugh as they get shot up, then send the harder units in.

I think grey Knights, Imperial Guard, and maybe Daemons can win against Tau in most games. like I was trying to say before the Guard can simply out shoot Tau. grey Knights can at strength 5 ap 5 as well with strength 7 assault cannons. With Daemons pink horrors can actually dish out strength 6 love and out shoot tau as well. Plus not to mention skullcannons can rape tau squads.

You're obviously not getting the Tau mentality. They are not a Japanese flavoured guard army. Whilst shooting is most definitely what they excel at, it is mixed in with a maneuverable element that creates such a diverse contrast to many a guard list that is in the meta game at the moment. 

however I don't think tau can handle multiple attacks at multiple fronts.

And BINGO! We have a winner. The crux of most Tau Vs X games can be boiled down to the Tau player forcing his opponent into attacking piecemeal, preferably where it will hurt the least. His opponents job is to saturate the Tau players thought process with too many targets to actually be capable of tackling the real threats. Imagine it as a game of chess, theres those times where no matter what you do you are going to be losing a piece and have to choose which is more preferable piece to keep. When playing against Tau you have to focus on being the guy that forces the decision, not being the one to make the choice.